[MD] A fly in the MOQ ointment

[MarshaV]

Bravo!    
 
 
 
On Mar 21, 2010, at 11:35 AM, Mary wrote:

> Some quotes from Lila for Horse...
> 
> .  Is society
> going to dominate intellect or is intellect going to dominate society?  And
> if society wins, what's going to be left of intellect?  And if intellect
> wins what's going to be left of society?
> 
> .  Intellect is
> not an extension of society any more than society is an extension of
> biology.  Intellect is going its own way, and in doing so is at war with
> society, seeking to subjugate society
> 
> Ch 21
> Once intellect has been let out of the bottle of social restraint,
> it is almost impossible to put it back in again.  And it is immoral to try.
> A society that tries to restrain the truth for its own purposes is a lower
> form of evolution than a truth that restrains society for its own purposes.
> 
> Ch 22
> When the social climate changes from
> preposterous social restraint of all intellect to a relative abandonment of
> all social patterns, the result is a hurricane of social forces.  That
> hurricane is the history of the twentieth century.
> 
> , the day Socrates died to establish the independence
> of intellectual patterns from their social origins.  Or the day Descartes
> decided to start with himself as an ultimate source of reality.  These were
> days of evolutionary transformation.
> 
> that if he had to pick one day when the shift from social
> domination of intellect to intellectual domination of society took place,
> he would pick November 11, 1918, Armistice Day, the end of World War I.
> And if he had to pick one person who symbolized this shift more than any
> other, he would have picked President Woodrow Wilson.
> The picture of him Phædrus would have selected is one in which Wilson rides
> through New York City in an open touring car, doffing the magnificent silk
> hat that symbolized his high rank in Victorian society.  For a cutline he
> would select something from Wilson's penetrating speeches that symbolized
> his high rank in the intellectual community: We must use our intelligence
> to stop future war; social institutions can not be trusted to function
> morally by themselves; they must be guided by intellect.  Wilson belonged
> in both worlds, Victorian society and the new intellectual world of the
> twentieth century: the only university professor ever to be elected
> president of the United States.
> 
> New technology fueled the change.
> 
> .  The mastery of all
> these new changes was no longer dominated by social skills.  It required a
> technologically trained, analytic mind.  A horse could be mastered if your
> resolve was firm, your disposition pleasant and fear absent.  The skills
> required were biological and social.  But handling the new technology was
> something different.  Personal biological and social qualities didn't make
> any difference to machines.
> 
> The times were chaotic, but it was a chaos of social patterns only.  
> 
> But it was only social value patterns being
> destroyed by new intellectual formulations.
> The events that excited people in the twenties were events that dramatized
> the new dominance of intellect over society.
> 
> Literature emphasized the
> struggle of the noble, free-thinking individual against the crushing
> oppression of evil social conformity.  The Victorians were damned for their
> narrow-mindedness, their social pretentiousness.  The test of what was
> good, of what had Quality, was no longer "Does it meet society's approval?"
> but "Does it meet the approval of our intellect?"
> 
> It was this issue of intellect versus society that made the Scopes trial of
> 1925 such a journalistic sensation.  
> 
> Only religious fanatics and ignorant Tennessee
> hillbillies opposed the teaching of Evolution.
> 
> .  Communism and socialism,
> programs for intellectual control over society, were confronted by the
> reactionary forces of fascism, a program for the social control of
> intellect.  Nowhere were the intellectuals more intense in their
> determination to overthrow the old order.  
> 
> Phædrus thought that no other historical or political analysis explains the
> enormity of these forces as clearly as does the Metaphysics of Quality.
> 
> The gigantic power of socialism and fascism, which have overwhelmed this
> century, is explained by a conflict of levels of evolution.  This conflict
> explains the driving force behind Hitler not as an insane search for power
> but as an all-consuming glorification of social authority and hatred of
> intellectualism.  His anti-Semitism was fueled by anti-intellectualism.
> His hatred of communists was fueled by anti-intellectualism.  His
> exaltation of the German volk was fueled by it.  His fanatic persecution of
> any kind of intellectual freedom was driven by it.
> In the United States the economic and social upheaval was not so great as
> in Europe, but Franklin Roosevelt and the New Deal, nevertheless, became
> the center of a lesser storm between social and intellectual forces.  The
> New Deal was many things, but at the center of it all was the belief that
> intellectual planning by the government was necessary for society to regain
> its health.
> 
>> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 6:14 AM from Horse
>> 
>> Hi Mary
>> 
>> The Intellectual Level is created by Intellectual Patterns of Value.
>> Not all Intellectual Pattens of Value are either subjects or objects.
> 
> [Mary Replies] 
> Hi Horse!
> Speaking with absolute respectfulness and sincerity, you will have to
> explain to me what Intellectual Patterns are not subjects or objects.
> Seriously.  I cannot think of any.
> 
>> This creates a problem for Bo so he has to try and re-classify those
>> Intellectual Patterns which are not S/O as Social Patterns.
> [Mary Replies] 
> If you are referring to things like Buddhism, then you'll have to explain to
> me how those differ from any other belief system, since we should be able to
> agree that belief systems in general reside in the Social Level.
> 
>> This creates all sorts of problems and results in a mangling of the MoQ
>> in order to accommodate Bo's ideas.
>> A Metaphysics is an Intellectual Pattern of Value and SOM is one of a
>> number of metaphysical systems (S/O, Process, Quality etc.- and this is
>> only the Western systems - there are plenty more Eastern based systems)
>> and all exist within the Intellectual level and are created by IPOV.
> [Mary Replies] 
> Perhaps, but it could be argued that all Metaphysics is an attempt to
> construct a belief system.
> 
>> Creating new levels for each metaphysics is absurd.
> [Mary Replies] 
> I agree with that.
> 
>> Are you, like Bo, denying that those huge bodies of Eastern philosophy
>> (which are not SOM) are not Intellectual Patterns of Value when they
>> emerged without the benefit of SOM? Are you saying that all non-SOM
>> metaphysical systems are either variations of SOM or only exist at the
>> Social level?
> [Mary Replies] 
> To clarify, I'd need you to name the Eastern philosophies you are referring
> to so I could read about them, but in general I would say they are probably
> Social Level POVs.
> 
>> Do you see where this is leading? Bo has to dismiss, deny or denigrate
>> everything that Pirsig has said which is/are counter to Bo's mistaken
>> notions - implying that Pirsig is so foolish and naive that he doesn't
>> even understand his own work!!!!
>> Additionally, he dishonestly claims that Pirsig pretty much agrees with
>> him that his pet theory is correct, even when Pirsig specifically
>> rejects this in the same letter!
> [Mary Replies] 
> I love you and I love Bo.  You are both what I consider to be old friends
> from long ago.  I think I see your point, though I don't really agree with
> it, and I also see Bo's, though not in the same way Bo does. 
> 
> I don't recall Pirsig denouncing Eastern Philosophy in Lila.  He basically
> omitted the subject.  He wrote a book targeting Western readers in a Western
> context to challenge Western patterns of thought.  He was being highly
> critical of subject-object metaphysics - which is the entire basis for all
> of Western science and Western religion.  He does owe Eastern philosophy a
> great debt.  Based on my (admittedly limited) understanding of Eastern
> philosophy, he took it and ran with it.  
> 
> The Metaphysics of Quality is something entirely new.  A workable way to
> modify SOM <for the Western mind> using Buddhism as its base.  This became
> clear to me reading Khoo's posts of the last month or so.  That's not meant
> to denigrate Pirsig's accomplishment at all!  What he did was a gigantic
> mental leap, one I think would only be possible for someone with a profound
> understanding of both Eastern and Western philosophies.  He is showing us a
> way forward using the best of both worlds.
> 
> Best wishes,
> Mary
> 
>> 
>> Cheers
>> 
>> 
>> Horse
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On 21/02/2010 23:36, Mary wrote:
>>> HI Horse,
>>> 
>>> Wow.  I tend to agree with Bo.  At least most of what he says.  The
>>> Intellectual Level is SOM.  Please explain how I am incorrect.  I am
>> not
>>> arguing, would just like to know.
>>> 
>>> Mary
>>> 
>>> - The most important thing you will ever make is a realization.
>>> 
>>> 
>> 
>> --
>> 
>> Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of
>> arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but to skid
>> in sideways, chocolate in one hand, wine in the other, body thoroughly
>> used up, totally worn out and screaming "WOO HOO what a ride!"...
>> Hunter S Thompson