[MD] A fly in the MOQ ointment

[skutvik at online.no]

Hi Horse

You know how to revive the discussion when at a low, just introduce 
the SOL ;-)  

30 March you wrote (to Mary who had provided a long list of quotes 
that support the SOL) :  

Admittedly none directly say "the 4th. level is the subject/object 
distinction " but because intellect is the level that strives to control 
social values and none of the intellectual definitions hitherto provided 
explains any social control except the "objective attitude" i.e. the SOL. 
See? 

Mary (ZAMM ): 
> > , the day Socrates died to establish the independence
> > of intellectual patterns from their social origins.  Or the day
> > Descartes decided to start with himself as an ultimate source of
> > reality.  These were days of evolutionary transformation.

This one however is a direct and unequivocal SOL support. Socrates 
represents SOM in moqspeak and if he also represents "the 
independence of intellectual patterns from their social origins ..." ipso 
facto! This goes for Descartes too. How Pirsig could write this in 
ZAMM and then - in LILA - become so vague is a mystery.   

Horse:
> The above show that Pirsig supports the moral hierarchy of the MoQ -
> i.e. that Intellectual patterns of Value should dominate Social
> patterns of Value.

Right, but how the heck can - for instance - manipulation of symbols 
"dominate social patterns of value"?  Language is manipulation  ...etc. 
and it has been around since the Neanderthals. Come to your senses! 

> In the above, where is he showing support for Bo's idea that the
> Intellectual level consists of purely Subjects and Objects? 

"Consists of purely subjects and object"!!! What nonsense! Intellectual 
value is the "Objective over subjective" capability. However, for this to 
occur the S/O distinction was first to be established, thus "subjective" 
is indigenous to intellect - its derogatory term for all that is 
untrustworthy. The social level knows no S/O. A true believer will deny 
that God just exists in his/her mind. 


Bodvar