[MD] A fly in the MOQ ointment

[skutvik at online.no]

Steve and Horse and the whole menagerie.

On 30/03/2010:

Steve:
> > In the equation "2+2=4" where are the subjects and and where are the
> > objects? 

Bo:
This alleged "refutation" of the SOL (based on Pirsigs "Higher 
mathematics.....etc. having no subject/object content") is based on the 
misunderstanding that calculation being Q-intellect, while it is  merely 
calculation that the mankind has performed since time immemorial. At 
least as long as it has manipulated symbols in the form of language. 
Totally irrelevant. The Babylonians and Egyptians (Hammurabi was a 
social level inhabitant according to Pirsig, remember?) calculate and 
reckoned using complicated mathematics for instance the 
Pythagorean logic that Pyth.  - and the Greek intellectuals - made into 
proofs and theorems to - OBJECTIVELY - show how & why works.   

Horse:
> There aren't any - and there's even less in 0! Nice posts by the way
> Horse 

Bo:
FYI: The SOL does NOT say that the 4th level consists of subjects and 
objects,  rather it is the SOM (the "objective-over-subject" approach) 
without its "M"!!!!  


30 March Steve wrote (to Marsha:)

> Pirsig's intellect--the manipulations of symbols--does not require us
> to attach any ontological significance to the symbols as subjective
> stuff and material stuff. To the MOQer, the symbols don't refer to any
> kind of "stuff." The symbols are patterns of value, and they stand for
> more patterns of value.  There is no "stuff" to speak of except as a
> sort of pattern of value. It is patterns all the way down.

"Pirsig's intellect" has varied from ".. equal to mind" (letter to Anthony) 
to ".. no use to speak about intellect before the Greeks" which 
(correctly) indicates SOM, but for confusion's sake he added the 
"manipulation of symbols". 

Now, all quotes who Mary brought indicates that intellect's purpose is 
to control social value and I wonder how manipulation of symbols can 
do that job and - moreover -  how it can be an offence to social value 
all the time that language is manipulation and has been around since 
time immemorial . The true intellectual value is under your noses, but 
no one wishes to "see through that telescope", a mystery all the time 
that so much of the Pirsig's supports the SOL  

All this about symbols not stuff is kindergarten "stuff" and totally 
unasked for, but with enough "ontology" and "cosmology" interspersed 
it sounds very learned ..and the MOQ can go on as another somish 
toothless idea.  Steve forbade me to reply, a new tactics in the hope 
that his bluffs will not be called.

Bodvar