[MD] Reading & Comprehension

[John Carl]

aw heck, Frank, don't be like that.

you're it.



On Sun, May 9, 2010 at 4:47 PM, Frank Booth <frankbooth66 at yahoo.com> wrote:

> Godamnitalltohell. ( kicks can, sulks away. )
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: John Carl <ridgecoyote at gmail.com>
> To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
> Sent: Sun, May 9, 2010 12:18:54 PM
> Subject: Re: [MD] Reading & Comprehension
>
> Thanks Mary, for a well-written and well-thought post.
>
> It's interesting to get your take on a period of MD, examined as a whole
> from a slightly removed weekend perspective.  Being in the middle of
> something grants less perspective than a bit removed from the fray.
>
> I just have one quibble that jumped out at me, a correction of your
> perception of my view:
>
>
>
> > [Mary Replies]
> > The quotes below are entirely consistent with my view of the Intellectual
> > Level as SOM and with my additional view that thinking existed in
> > rudimentary form all the way back to the Biological.  When discussing
> > intelligence, one has to be mindful of "degree".  I do differ with John's
> > idea that even pre-biological objects exhibit intelligence.
> >
> >
> I postulate intelligence as the defining characteristic of life.  The
> difference between an amoeba and a crystalline growth is an intelligent
> patterning of substance.  To me, that's just a simple, pragmatically
> defensible definition.
>
> Whereas intellect is the defining characteristic of humans.  Intellect
> involves symbolic manipulation and intelligence "purposive response to
> environment."
>
> I don't insist upon inflicting my definitions, but I do see them as
> provisionally useful for my own understanding.
>
>
> Mary:
>
>
> > Well, I further contend that art also resides at the Social Level.
> >
> >
> John:
>
> I disagree.  Just as humans alone exhibit intellectual patterns, so too do
> humans alone exhibit artistic behavior.   Horses live naturally in a social
> herd, but they don't do art.
>
> Mary:
>
>
> > I think this because basic communication is a Biological function, but as
> > communication transcends Biological needs and also evolves into greater
> > complexity, it becomes Social Level communication, and art is nothing
> more
> > nor less than communication of ideas that transcend Biological needs.
> >
> >
> John:
>
> Communication is a social-level pattern, as one horse trumpet danger to the
> others.  Language however is intellectual and confined to humans.
>
> The "communication of ideas" is  intellectual, at least as I define the
> term.
>
> Mary:
>
>
> > The reason I do not place art in the Intellectual Level is because that
> is
> > not its purpose.  Art is not something we do in an attempt to thwart or
> > control Society.
> >
> >
> John:
>
> Oh my goodness Mary, what a disastrous confusion!  Have you never
> contemplated the eras of Soviet State sponsored Art?  Of the uses Hitler
> made of artistic propoganda or even our modern devotion to artistic
> expression promoting  commercialism?  What is all this but exactly that
> attempt to control society?
>
> Even Pirsig's books are an artistic attempt to  thwart society's SOM.
>
> Mary:
>
>
> > Art is simply a way to convey our brief touches with Dynamic Quality to
> > others.
> >
> > It is a form of communication.  Nothing more nor less.
> >
>
> Art has no Intellectual or Social axe to grind inherently - though it
> > certainly has been used for such.
> >
> >
> John:
>
> Hmmm... I think this whole line of yours ought to be re-examined.  If Art
> has been, "used for such", then I'd say it's an inherent feature.  And as a
> "form of communication", it is definitely inherently then of an
> intellectual
> basis.
>
>
> Thanks for your thoughts, Mary.
>
> And happy Mother's Day!
>
> John
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