[MD] the sophists

[MarshaV]

Arlo,

Btw, I've read 'Finite and Infinite Games: A Vision of Life as Play and 
Possibility' by James Carse.  I know I can quit this verbal game at any time.


Marsha 




On May 14, 2010, at 8:05 AM, MarshaV wrote:

> 
> Arlo,
> 
> The ideas of the sophists pretty much died with Pericles and Socrates.  To 
> say the intellectual level could have been different is much like saying 
> human being could have evolved with wings and flippers:  Idle speculation.
> 
> 
> Marsha
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On May 14, 2010, at 7:55 AM, MarshaV wrote:
> 
>> 
>> On May 14, 2010, at 7:16 AM, ARLO J BENSINGER JR wrote:
>> 
>>> "Phædrus reads further and further into pre-Socratic Greek thought to find
>>> out, and eventually comes to the view that Plato’s hatred of the rhetoricians
>>> was part of a much larger struggle in which the reality of the Good,
>>> represented by the Sophists, and the reality of the True, represented by the
>>> dialecticians, were engaged in a huge struggle for the future mind of man.
>>> Truth won, the Good lost, and that is why today we have so little difficulty
>>> accepting the reality of truth and so much difficulty accepting the reality of
>>> Quality, even though there is no more agreement in one area than in the other."
>>> 
>>> "And yet, Phædrus understands, what he is saying about Quality is somehow
>>> opposed to all this. It seems to agree much more closely with the Sophists."
>>> 
>>> ""Man is the measure of all things." Yes, that’s what he is saying about
>>> Quality. Man is not the source of all things, as the subjective idealists would
>>> say. Nor is he the passive observer of all things, as the objective idealists
>>> and materialists would say. The Quality which creates the world emerges as a
>>> relationship between man and his experience. He is a participant in the
>>> creation of all things." (ZMM)
>>> 
>>> The intellectual patterns emerging from the Sophists were not SOM. They were
>>> clearly something better. And it is HERE that the SOM infestation of Western
>>> culture began. And it is HERE that Pirsig begins his treatise on correcting
>>> this.
>>> 
>>> Of course, you are more than welcome to rewrite ZMM and LILA to suit your SOL
>>> needs as Bo suggests (its the only way you can make an SOL even come close to
>>> making any sort of "sense"). 
>> 
>> 
>> Hi Arlo,
>> 
>> RMP does not reference SOM in ZMM.  In my interpretation the Sophists see the
>> world as relative. Plato&company see the world filled with fixed, concrete , external 
>> objects; objects of knowledge, objects of study, SOM.  Experience as relative, 
>> dependent of value, is what Phaedrus recognized in the sophists as 'better'.  
>> 
>> There is no rewriting, there is a difference in interpretation. 
>> 
>> 
>> Marsha
>> 
>> 
>> 
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