[MD] the sophists

[John Carl]

Greetings Ron,

Back from my middle child's high school graduation, I'll have to tell y'all
about it, it was interesting.  The address was given by an old friend and
roomate of mine, but first, let's see what xacto has to say today:

On Sat, May 29, 2010 at 4:59 AM, X Acto <xacto at rocketmail.com> wrote:

>
> Ron:
> Hello John,
> I think the parts of the book, especially the parts in ZMM with Gumption
> traps
> and stuckness, being one with the motorcycle, a sense of care.  In Lila
> with
> working in paralells, random access, history as biography, to name a few
> ideas
> are teaching us tools to evaluate experience with more precision and
> refinement
> "Are you teaching Quality?" is the spine to the whole endeavor. His 1961
> paper
> discussing teaching quality in the classroom started the whole thing.
>


Of course I agree with what you say, Ron, but I think the most interesting
part of this process you describe is the teaching of an UNDEFINED quality.
 That usually, in the teaching process, an expert academic imparts
everything he knows on a defined object of learning to his ignorant
students.

But what I found in the Pirsigian teachings of Quality, is the teacher as a
leader in a communal discovery of quality together.  That this teaching
goal, when undefined, invites the participation of the students IN the
process which is a richer learning experience for both the students and the
teacher, and of higher quality in the end.

By keeping Quality AND the process, relatively free and undefined and open.

And thus in keeping with what I understood Bo's point to be, "DQ can't be
'taught".  He's right.  Not in the normal ways we think of teaching anyway.
 DQ can only be realized, not taught.

Ooo!! Ooo!  An aphorism! an Aphorism! I Just came up with an aphorism!

I love it when that happens.




> Of course part of this teaching, the most enlightening part,is that some
> parts can't be
> be taught with words they must be lived. Socrates to Aristotle say the
> same,
> they teach the methods in which to refine our ability to make meaningful
> distinctions.
> They teach us to think for ourselves
> They teach the tools used for useful methods of inquirey
> Traditionally there is a process of breaking down what a person thinks they
> know
> This is part of the teaching process, then they teach methods of the
> refinement of values,
> the visitor from Elea in Platos "Sophist" stated that refutation was a
> useful process,
> But part of the practice was the refinement of explaination.
> James noted that Pragmatic truth is nothing to rest apon, it's a call to
> action making
> value judgements in the now of experience, puting explainations to work.
>
>

Truth is very similar to Quality in that's its not a thing-in-itself, it's
an ideal, a construct which we use to build meaning.  It's what's behind the
meaning of meaning, and we couldn't do without it.  I'd describe Truth as an
Absolute Ideal.  I'd describe Quality as an Absolute Ideal.  That's nothin'
fancy, metaphysically, imo, it's just plain as the nose on your face.

I understand about the value of the methods of teaching.  You have to have a
firm sq base in order to make any DQ leap forward.  You have to have a set
of ideas and a problem before you can come up with a hypothesis.  They are
intertwined, admittedly.

But if you want my opinion, teaching is much more of an art than a science.
 The good ones (teachers) I've had in my life were the most open and the
least rigid.  They knew that to reach an other's mind, great flexibility is
required and thus I'll stand by Bo's assertion that DQ can't be taught.  sq?
 Yes.  DQ?  No.



> Yes, everyone knows Quality it doesent have to be taught, but not everyone
> is aware
> of it and how being aware of it allows us to be more successful in our
> endeavors.
>
>
See, it should be taught, but with the realization that it can't be.  Not
that I meant to play into the hands of the irony crowd, but there ya go.


 I like my new aporism tho.  I'm gonna play with it a while:

  DQ can't be taught, only realized.

 Take Care,

John