[MD] Is this the inadequacy of the MOQ?

[rapsncows at fastmail.fm]

On Thu, 4 Nov 2010 08:39:17 -0700, "118" <ununoctiums at gmail.com> said:
> [Tim]
> > I know you have suggested some homework for me regarding this term
> > 'analogy', I'll get to it.  But let me ask: am I too an analogy?
> >
> 
> [Mark]
> Good question.  I could give you the simple answer which would be that
> you
> are an analogy to me based on what I read from you, but you cannot be an
> analogy to yourself.

[Tim]
okay, then I will not have to worry about truth and me being somehow
less real.  Good.  But, based on my understanding of 'analogy' thus far
(which word I still don't like), I would say that I am an analogy to
myself as well.  I have faith that I am, but I can't define myself
precisely.  I have faith that there is such a thing as truth, though I
cant express it exactly.  If it is merely this fundamental imperfection
then I will suggest we not use the word analogy, because it has a
traditional use, when you are obviously talking about something else. 
If there weren't a difference between the cases when you are obviously
talking about something else and the cases when you are really trying to
get at IT, we would either be denying the existence of the real, or we
wouldn't be able to know to think that when phaedrus talks of a train,
and the back of it being the static quality, and the front of it being
dynamic, that we shouldn't actually think that there is some real live
train somewhere.

>  The way that I use the term analogy is to provide
> the
> awareness that what we create with words are a description of things but
> are
> not the actual things themselves.  Plato is better at describing this
> than
> I.

so I think that I hate the word analogy here (though I've yet to do too
much homework).  In fact, though perhaps this is because I didn't value
it, I don't recall phaedrus using this concept.  THere is a difference
between having a small but fundamental inadequacy in mental mapping to
the real, and talking about something entirely different in order to
help you see past a large inadequacy that is keeping you well away from
the real.

> 
> We can create analogies for truth as complex as we want, but are still
> only
> left with the descriptions.  Such descriptions are self-referential
> because
> they are created by the mind.  "A" lead to "B", therefore "B" is a result
> of
> "A".  For me it is important to recognize the descriptive sense of things
> and not pretend that there is more to them than that, or it is easy to
> get
> stuck and righteous.

I agree that humility is proper.  I agree that we should recognize any
fundamental limitations.  I agree that we should always look to see
where we might have erred.  But I think that we must have faith that
there is a real.  I think that we must have faith that I am an I, and
that you are a you.

  There are of course meaningful descriptions,
> science
> is full of them, but such description are floating in the mind, and
> simply
> point towards something and create awareness. Descriptive understanding
> is
> useful for agreement and conversation, and in the end unity, and is a
> basis
> for sharing awarenesses.  It also just as readily leads to polarization
> because some believe there is Truth associated with them, which is
> dictated
> from somewhere outside the mind and therefore compelling.
> 
> So, my suggestion is to free up your mind from some hardened premises and
> ask questions.  The end result is to provide yourself with something
> meaningful that you can believe in.  This does not bring in the terms
> relative, or conditional.  It is deeper than that, it is you.

Bango!  All analogies would be meaning-less if there were not something
meaningful to which they pointed.  No analogies would be thought or
uttered if there was not a cause for BELIEF.  I might flip it around at
this point and suggest you free up your mind from the hardened premise
of 'analogy'.

let me know,
Tim


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