[MD] [Bulk] Re: Is this the inadequacy of the MOQ?

[MarshaV]

On Nov 9, 2010, at 2:09 AM, rapsncows at fastmail.fm wrote:

> Marsha,
> my comments below,
> Tim
> 
> 
> [From the conversation between Marsha and Tim]
> 
>> 
>> Marsha:
>> There is no object of analogy; there is only process/experience.  
>> An analogy is a process pointing to a process pointing to a process 
>> etc., etc., etc.   
>> 
>> Are your preferences a type of object?  Or process?   
> 
> [Tim]
> I am thinking both, simultaneously...
> 
> let me ask: what pointed to the analogy/process/experience at the
> outset?

Marsha:
Good question.  I cannot imagine how any answer I offer will not be false.  


>  Is there such a boundary I can rightfully call the 'outset'?

Marsha:
Quality(DQ-unpatternred experience/sq-patterned experience)  
  

>> Marsha:
>> Relatively  close, maybe?  What should we inform that naughty Social 
>> Level?  How about that freedom's just another word for nothing left to 
>> lose.  
> 
> [Tim]
> am I giving this too much consideration?  It is hard for me to be
> certain, but I think you chose these words carefully too.  How do you
> describe your relation to the process?  Are you the process?  I am
> really running myself over teh coals here trying to see what role others
> play in the process.  Help please!  Another person would only want
> freedom from the process (independence) if they hated teh process and
> felt they had nothing left to lose?

Experience/process.  You process.  Me process.  I do not hate the process,
but see that mistaking the process for acquirable objects is mistaken identity.  
In forgetting this I often create suffering.   


>> Marsha:
>> I don't see it that way.  I see it as Quality(unpatterned experience/
>> patterned experience), pure process, no thing, no absolute.
> 
> 
>> Marsha:
>> Knowing it doesn't mean one has the best words to talk about it.  In fact 
>> talking about it may prevent one from knowing it.  It's the Mother of all 
>> paradoxes.  ...  But I cannot think what is more important.   Really.   
>> 
>> Knowing for me has taken on a rather odd flavor.  I've read, and it 
>> seems true, that the best way to approach Quality (Ultimate Truth) is 
>> by discovering what is false.  
>> 
> 
> [Tim]
> ha ha!  I think I see.  Ultimate Truth rather than absolute ...  Fine
> ... I concur: it seems that it is Ultimate Truth that bounds the process
> at the outset.  

Do you see?  :-)   


> Perhaps it is a leap of faith, but mustn't an ultimate
> truth be a thing, qua thing.  

Marsha:
An ultimate truth has much thing-y-ness as my good and very classy 
little poodle Bebe.   


> [Tim]
> Maybe then we can even conserve your
> distaste for thing-y-ness in the process; I mean, I definitely agree
> that the thing-y-ness of common things is either illusory in teh hard
> sense, or perceptual in the soft sense...  But in the realm of ideas,
> cant a thing be a thing?  (I think that this use runs through what I
> have already said)

Marsha:
Sure, a thing is ever-changing, interdependent, impermanent static 
patterns of value.  



>> Marsha:
>> 
>> Paradox!  
>> 
>> Maybe if I become enlightened the words will flow like honey.   But at 
>> the moment they bounce and ramble like analogies.   But I try my best.   
>> 
>> DQ is sq, sq is DQ.  Isn't it a miracle that we are here, in this forum,
>> touching Quality? 
>> 
> 
> [Tim]
> with my new found perspective of faith, being seemingly banal - thus
> transcendant - it seems that there might be place for 'miracle' in my
> lexicon, and that it's proper use is in the seemingly banal.  That the
> Idea of a motorcycle can faithfully exist and can actually lead to the
> illusion of a working material motorcycle which, via DQ, simultaneously
> grants the illusory perceptions of riding that motorcycle: whoa! that
> felt real!  Miracle!

Marsha:
Are you making fun I my using the word miracle?  One minute I am 
encouraged to speak in this s-o oriented language and in the next 
moment I am ridiculed for doing so.  I'm kidding.  You are getting the 
idea.  Miracle!  But while this is all wonderful, there is also a dark side: 
greed, hatred, ignorance and arrogance.  



>>> either way, the question is: isn't the goal of all this just to get out,
>>> and by out I mean intellectually out of the intellectualization of a
>>> distorted image of the past, and matterially, into a material pattern,
>>> fairly constituted, and especially so regarding: social individuals -
>>> organized based on the best that the intellectual level has to offer?
>> 
>> Marsha:
>> I am not so far enough along that I can see the end of the tunnel, but I
>> might 
>> guess that it is good to understand intellectualization as a pretty good
>> tool, 
>> but nothing more.  I want to say something about what makes your heart
>> skip 
>> a beat, or takes your breath away.  Bumpity, bump - bump - bounce...  
>> 
> 
> [Tim]
> I wonder about two independent ideas interacting.  Miracle!!
 
Marsha:
Miracle! 
 
 
>>>> [Marsha] So if we agree on "ever-changing, interdependent, impermanent, 
>>>> inorganic, biological, social and intellectual static patterns of value,"
>>>> I am pleased.
>>> 
>>> [Tim]
>>> I think I have one correction: (actually two, the first is that, as I
>>> recall, I left out 'of value' the first time) I have to leave off '
>>> static patterns'.  Perhaps it is best to put back "of value" ---> 
>>> "ever-changing, interdependent, impermanent, inorganic, biological,
>>> social, intellectual _________________  of value".  I guess, we both
>>> believe we need to use some uncertainty.  I just think there is value to
>>> using some in the blank too.  I guess I'm suggesting that, to me, it
>>> seems like, in saying 'static pattern', you are finding outlet for the
>>> "absolute" you were lacking before.  And that phaedrus would suggest
>>> that that outlet should rather come as a faith in the absoluteness of
>>> some You, which Knows Quality.
>> 
>> Marsha:
>> I know it is a cliche, but the journey is the destination.  And I suppose
>> that 
>> makes me the journey.
> 
> [Tim]
> if you are an idea, you can be A limitless journies

Marsha:
You are a miracle.  




Byeeee.  

Marsha  










 
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