[MD] Intellectual Level

[118]

Hi Arlo,
I do not see that you answered my questions, so I will reiterate them in
another way.

On Tue, Nov 16, 2010 at 1:53 PM, Arlo Bensinger <ajb102 at psu.edu> wrote:

> [Mark]
> Yes, you are pointing to the distinction between mind and matter, something
> that has always been at the center-point of religions and philosophies,
> particularly the metaphysical.
>
> [Arlo]
> Not sure how you get this, but its not what I said. You said "SOM is used
> for communication", and this is an incorrect use of the term "SOM".
>
> "SOM" is a specific metaphysical position that declares "subjects" and
> "objects" to be the primary division of "reality".
>
> The fact that we communicate (often) using "subjects" and "objects" has
> nothing to do with the SOM premise. In other words, "SOM" does not mean the
> grammatical use of "subjects" and "objects", but again refers to a very
> specific metaphysical position.
>

[Mark]
Subjects and objects are the primary division of reality.  OK, so what is a
subject?  What is the difference between a subject and an object.  As such,
what is this metaphysical position that you are subscribing to?  I'm sure
this has been discussed way to much in this forum, so what is your
conclusion?

>
> [Mark before]
> What, if I may ask, is doing the selection?
>
> [Arlo]
> Pirsig approaches this topic in his discussion about hypotheses, and brings
> Poincare and Einstein into the mix. Pirsig uses the analogy of a "knife",
> Einstein is quoted as describing it as ""Evolution has shown that at any
> given moment out of all conceivable constructions a single one has always
> proved itself absolutely superior to the rest," and let it go at that."
> (ZMM) Poincare, Pirsig mentions, "hypothesized that this selection is made
> by what he called the "subliminal self," an entity that corresponds exactly
> with what Phædrus called preintellectual awareness." (ZMM)
>
> [Mark]
>
What you present does not say anything except what others have used as
names.  If it is a knife, does this knife act on its own?  Your quote from
Einstein is simply a description of evolution which is teleological, as you
know.

With your last quote from Pirsig, are you saying that this pre intellectual
awareness chooses the awareness?  Are you saying that the pre-intellectual
awareness is the soul?  Where is the division between the pre-intellectual
and the intellectual?  What causes it?  If you say the intellect comes from
such pre-intellectual self, then this is what I stated originally which you
refuted (look back over our conversation).  That is that the intellect
arises from the pre-intellect as a simplification of such, they are the same
thing except one is forefront in the thought area.  Therefore as I stated
that intellect was part of this pre-intellect. We have gone full circle and
now do you agree with me?  I realize that I may not provide the right words
for you to interpret, but is seems pretty simple to me.

Still I am left with the question, how is this selection done?  Is it done
to us by Quality?  Do we have any control over it?  If so, where do you
think the control comes from?  What are we in this pre-intellectual
awareness?  This does not have to go through endless regression like a
paradox unless you want it to.  If you are happy living in one of Zeno's
paradoxes that is fine, but I think you are more clever than that.

Regards,
Mark

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