[MD] a-theism and atheism

[rapsncows at fastmail.fm]

Ron,
please let me tell you why I disagree with you,
Tim

[From the conversation between Ron and Mark]
 
>[Ron] Understand, once Quality is objectified, worshipped and taken for 
> holy writ, as the one true guide, it becomes rationalistic, it seeks to
> explain life in terms of one unity., Pirsig is saying in so many words
> that MoQ is not Rationalistic.

[Tim]
RMP says, "you know quality".  I think he would fully admit that there
is 'real' underlying the whole charade.  The point of quality was to get
behind mere appearance of the real (which appearance can be real
appearance at the same time).  The point was to uphold the real, not to
do away with it.  BUt, at the same time, it was to say that the real is
always going to be at least one step removed.  There will always be
unknown.  You can't ever grab hold of the absolutely real and contain
it.  I think that Pirsig was saying that reality abides by rationality,
but that it also stays ahead of you - so that we can't pin it down and
destroy it.

> 
> [Ron] It boils down to the prefference between terms "God" as the most basic
> general expression of experience or "Quality".
> 
> God, as said before requires a radical shift in meaning whereas "Quality"
> meets the needs of economic explanation. Everyone knows quality.
> everyone knows betterness.

[Tim]
but what some people see when they see quality in its greatest quality:
god.  It is hard, if not impossible, for me to squash all thought that
this reality that envelopes me...  when I view this enveloping of me, it
is hard for me to not-see something that looks a whole lot like me.  I'm
willing to bet that when you are by yourself you fall victim to the same
pattern.  I think that if you are ever going to convince someone that
they stand to learn something about their god by listening to you, you
will have a much better go at it if you try to convince them within
their own best understanding.

now back to the top,

> Ron:
> Rationalism seems to want to call it something it seeks unity.
> while the empriricists seeks the plural, the many in explanations.

[Tim]
any plural that is a plural is only a plural because it is linked.  If
there were no unity between the many, there would be no plural, but
singular, singular, singular, singular, ...  none known to the other.

 
> [Ron] The MoQist would discuss what makes one better than the other.

[Tim]
I know that it wasn't your intention, but yes, what does make the 'one'
better?  Isn't it the unity-difference/cohesion-separation?  The ability
to 'know', at least to get close to knowing, versus the utter inability
to connect to anything, anywhere, not even yourself?  Does stuff at
least unify to a 'you'?  Doesn't the empiricist even have to submit to
at least this unification?  And how is that accomplished; or, who does
that?

> 
> Mark:
> As you say, MOQ is meant to be empirical.  What is and is not empirical
> depends on agreement within those ascribing to the philosophy.

> Ron:
> That statement leads me to believe that you are taking a materialists
> point
> of view. Empirical, from my own understanding, is explanation predicated
> on experience.
> Typically, attributing experience to any one thing in particular, is a 
> rationalist
> arguement, they seek to explain the flux of experience with unity, one.

[Tim]
here we discuss MoQ and there is no unity.  There they discuss god and
there is no unity.  Yet you, who likes the plural, will wrap them all up
in one and say you are against theists!  ???!!!


> Ron:
> Although it is and can be interpreted in this way, it seems not in line
> with the authors original intent. 
> 
> certainly those are examples of possible interpretations but they seldom
> link together with the overall themes of Pirsigs work in any kind of
> cohesive
> continuose whole.

[Tim]
let us not rule out a path because we have failed to reach the
destination to date?  If so, we are lost forever.

Ron,
nice to meet you here,
Tim
 
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