[MD] Quantum Enigma

[MarshaV]

John,

Maybe dmb can tell us for certain.   


Marsha   
 
 
 


On Oct 7, 2010, at 7:54 AM, MarshaV wrote:

> Hi John,
> 
> I think W. James accepts the experience of intuition.  I cannot 
> imagine a Radical Empiricist rejecting intuition.  I'm sure the 
> Wiki info was pertaining to the scientific-SOM-variety of empiricist.  
> 
> Marsha 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Oct 6, 2010, at 6:50 PM, John Carl wrote:
> 
>> made me look, Marsha. Even worse, made me wiki-look.
>> ---On Rationalism vs. Empiricism
>> The most prominent distinguishing characteristic between these two
>> philosophies is that strict empiricists reject all *a priori* truths,
>> decrying any belief in innate knowledge or intuition
>> --------
>> 
>> So to an empiricist, "belief" is the problem.  Do they believe this
>> strongly?  And from what "facts" is it derived?
>> 
>> Hmmm... indeed.  I'm with you on that one, Marsha.
>> 
>> John
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Sat, Oct 2, 2010 at 11:00 AM, MarshaV <valkyr at att.net> wrote:
>> 
>>> 
>>> Hello again,
>>> 
>>> Been thinking, normally dangerous, but with a fever doubly so.  -  I keep
>>> thinking about you using the term "rational construct".  It seems to me
>>> while your Philosophy of Essence and the Metaphysics of Quality are both
>>> centered on Value their major difference is reason versus experience.  Yes?
>>> Rationality versus Empiricism?   Do you agree?  And having done a search, I
>>> see ti is a very old conflict, indeed.  Hmmm.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Marsha
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Oct 2, 2010, at 2:49 AM, MarshaV wrote:
>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Greetings Ham,
>>>> 
>>>> On Oct 2, 2010, at 2:05 AM, Ham Priday wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> Marsha:
>>>>>> How I understand conscious awareness is as pure process,
>>>>>> 100% immediate experience, and the moment one tries to
>>>>>> analyze it, it is gone.  All other entities - I, knower, self,
>>>>>> individual, me,  etc. -  are _conceptually constructed_ and
>>>>>> have no independent existence.  They are a  conglomerate
>>>>>> ever-changing, impermanent, interdependent, inorganic,
>>>>>> biological, social and intellectual static patterns of value.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Ham:
>>>>> Marsha, you are attempting to describe the subjective self as if it were
>>> an objective entity, which of course is impossible.  Yes, "raw" experience
>>> is "immediate", but it hardly represents 100% of conscious awareness.  There
>>> is also the memory function which links self-awareness to the past and makes
>>> experience a continuum; the emotive response which is the psycho-biological
>>> reaction to what is experienced; and intellection which interprets the data
>>> as a rational construct.  'I', 'Knower', 'Individual', and 'Me' are not
>>> different entities but simply the labels we use to identify the Self.
>>>>> 
>>>>> That standard definition, which even you must be tired of by now, paints
>>> a fuzzy picture of self-awareness as if to demean its credibility--which of
>>> course is your intent.  I still feel this is somewhat disingenuous on your
>>> part.  Certainly we cannot objectivize, quantify, measure, or localize
>>> conscious awareness as we can, say, a rock or a tree.  Conversely, however,
>>> what would the rock or tree be if there was no awareness of it?  As Pirsig
>>> insisted, experience is primary; and since experience is known only to
>>> awareness, all we really know about objective existence is that it is
>>> patterned from sensible value.
>>>> 
>>>> Marsha:
>>>> I am putting aside the experience of raw data (unpatterned experience)
>>> and talking about conscious awareness as in mindfulness.  Mindfulness is a
>>> technique easily learned and strengthened through practice.  It's the
>>> experience of being here-now without constructing an associated past or
>>> future.  In the mindfulness experience there is no building a subjective
>>> self for it is all _process_, all immediate experience.  Pattern recognition
>>> seems limited to the function of the sense organ.  It is _habit_ that
>>> associates these immediate experiences with an individual, independent self,
>>> or its various labels, rather than understanding that it is a flow of
>>> experiences.  _Habit_ that when conscious awareness (mindfulness) stops then
>>> the making of meaning begins (internal story-telling).  It is the conceptual
>>> constructing, making of meaning, that creates the independent self.  It is
>>> an after-experience add-on.  I am suggesting that in mindfulness it is
>>> obvious that experiences comes fi
>>> rst, and that associating now-experiences to a 'self' is a secondary
>>> habit.   Experience is primary!  Self-building is secondary.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Thanks Ham,
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Marsha
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
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