[MD] Emptiness & Quantum Mechancics

MarshaV valkyr at att.net
Sat Oct 9 12:31:53 PDT 2010 

On Oct 9, 2010, at 2:50 PM, 118 wrote:

> Hi Marsha,
> 
> Mark:
> Perhaps first cause is not the right concept.  What came first the chicken
> or the egg?  I would have to say, that even cyclical existence (and I prefer
> the static universe to the big bang, based on data interpretation),
> encompasses cause.  Perhaps driving force is another term which could be
> used for the question.

You'll work it out however you do.  


> If there is indeed a move towards greater freedom, then how do you explain
> the harmonization of levels?  Any systems approach limits freedom.  Indeed,
> this is thwarted by Pirsig by claiming Quality is undefinable, which is all
> good and well until we try to communicate on the subject.


Marsha:
Static patterns of value are definable, but ther may be different definitions 
depending on the occasion.  Communicating about Quality is 
to use static patterns of value, which is not Quality but words about 
Quality.  To say Quality is unknowable, indivisible and undefinable is 
to say something intellectual about Quality, but it is still only words 
about Quality.  To me there is a big difference between words explaining
and the experience.  



> Mark:
> As I have posted before, Quality can be seen as that which lies in between.

Like entanglement between self and object.  Like John mentioned.     



> Mark:
> That which defines the properties of static or dynamic patterns (as you
> say), but not held by them.  This type of concept is only useful if it leads
> somewhere.  For me, such a sensibility has useful consequences.  Once the
> object is defined (as it were) the structure can be investigated.  

Marsha:
Yes, investigation is a good.  And I have never stated that static patterns are 
bad; they too are good.  The scientific method is good.  The problem is 
to believe that these reified objects are the way things really are.  


> Mark:
> Perhaps it is all quantum foam (just wanted to use the words quantum 
> foam to see what google will try to sell me on gmail).

Marsha;
I rarely give the ads my attention, but I have noticed they seem to be stuck on 
advertising yarn.   


> Generalities with words with multiple subjective meanings does not help me
> much.  I work better in metaphors.  Give me a metaphor for Quality based on
> something simple.  I won't hold you to it and try to find flaws, but I may
> try to expand on it.

Marsha:
Quality is a metaphor.    



> 
> Cheers,
> Mark
> 
> On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 10:27 AM, MarshaV <valkyr at att.net> wrote:
> 
>> 
>> On Oct 9, 2010, at 12:29 PM, 118 wrote:
>> 
>>> Mark:
>>> My take on the Buddhist side is that things do not exist, period.
>> Perhaps a
>>> good analogy would be a wave on the ocean.  If one breaks it down, does
>> it
>>> really exist?  This speaks to your posts concerning patterns.  The notion
>> is
>>> that it is a composite of many tendencies.  And those tendencies are
>>> composites in themselves.  Thus no inherent existence.  Is there then a
>>> first cause tendency?  Can that be described as Quality?
>> 
>> I think Mahayana Buddhism would say that things exist conventionally,
>> dependent on multiple causes and conditions that are in turn dependent on
>> multiple causes and condition that are in turn dependent on multiple causes
>> and conditions.  Do you mean Quality as the relationships, or events, or
>> process
>> between and conditions?  -  There doesn't seem to be a need for a first
>> cause;
>> maybe a cyclical view of existence.
>> 
>> 
>>> Mark:
>>> Interesting posts below concerning betterness which I liked.  This would
>>> imply direction in some way, the arrow of Quality.  To get away from the
>>> relativism and subjective (if it is possible) for a second, can we ask
>> about
>>> that direction?  To start with, is that direction absolute?
>> 
>> Marsha:
>> Personally, I do not know what is absolute, though one may theorize.
>> Within
>> the MoQ, there is a movement towards greater freedom and that would be
>> towards betterment.  That is my understanding.
>> 
>> 
>>> Mark:
>>> Are we being pushed in that direction or being pulled?  Is the path
>> already
>>> formed, like a canyon which a river travels down in pure Quality?  If so,
>> what
>>> is the metaphysical shape of that canyon?  I believe that is one
>> metaphorical
>>> way of describing this structure we are creating.  The boundaries so to
>> speak.
>> 
>> Marsha:
>> I have no experience that might address your speculations, but they seem to
>> be forming an object-like pictures of a process.  Personally, the most I
>> can say is
>> that Quality may be experienced as unpatterned and patterned.  After that I
>> might
>> try to understand how the MoQ fits together according to its
>> presenter/author.
>> 
>> 
>>> Mark:
>>> Now, I'm sure that this is answered all the time in this forum, and that
>> I
>>> am but a neophyte.  And it is clear that the answer to such questions can
>>> result in religious or scientific solutions which have meaning.  Those
>> would
>>> appear objective (in some way) to me.  Now if we return back to the
>>> subjective and try to reify it with such a concept what are we left with?
>>> Betterness indeed, but what does that mean?  Maps within maps, quantum
>>> enigmas, all tools towards providing meaning.  And what makes things
>>> meaningful to the subjective?  Perhaps the shape of Quality could answer
>>> that.
>> 
>> Marsha:
>> Static patterns of value are goodness moving towards betterness.  Again,
>> the mostly I can say of Quality is that it is unpatterned experience and
>> patterned experience.  I don't think that objectification within science is
>> bad,
>> but to think it represents the way things really are is mistaken which
>> results in
>> the loss of recognizing Value.
>> 
>> 
>> Marsha
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> 
>>> Cheers,
>>> Mark
>>> 
>>> On Fri, Oct 8, 2010 at 11:02 PM, MarshaV <valkyr at att.net> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Hi Mark,
>>>> 
>>>> From the Buddhist side, things exist interdependently.  For example, all
>>>> things
>>>> depend upon being designated or imputed by consciousness.  From a MoQ
>>>> point-of-view, this is why I am so interested in the nature of patterns,
>>>> all patterns.
>>>> And I have determined that they are ever-changing, impermanent,
>>>> interdependent.
>>>> 
>>>> Isn't the reason we're in this forum is to discover the nature of
>> reality?
>>>> What it is:
>>>> Quality(unpatterned experience/patterned experience.)  What it is not:
>> an
>>>> independent existing self and independent existing objects.
>>>> 
>>>> Marsha
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> On Oct 9, 2010, at 1:08 AM, 118 wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> I guess it depends on how you define existence.  So, what kind of
>>>> existence
>>>>> is left, non-essence, acquired existence, extrinsic existence, relative
>>>>> existence, codependent existence?  Maybe we are all enabling each
>> other,
>>>>> give me a cigarette this is too heavy.
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Fri, Oct 8, 2010 at 9:36 PM, MarshaV <valkyr at att.net> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> To further expand:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Emptiness is the concept that self and all phenomenon are empty of
>>>> essence,
>>>>>> inherent existence, independent existence, intrinsic existence and
>>>> absolute
>>>>>> existence.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Oct 8, 2010, at 2:13 PM, MarshaV wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> To expand:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Emptiness is the concept that self and all phenomenon are empty of
>>>>>> essence, inherent existence, and independent existence.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On Oct 8, 2010, at 1:47 PM, MarshaV wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Emptiness is concept that self and all phenomenon are empty of
>>>> inherent
>>>>>> existence.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On Oct 8, 2010, at 1:25 PM, Andre Broersen wrote:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> John to Marsha:
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Meditate.  But don't meditate upon nothingness, or you will obtain
>>>>>>>>> nothingness.  Meditate upon truth and you will know truth.  It's
>>>> really
>>>>>> very
>>>>>>>>> simple.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Andre:
>>>>>>>>> John, I'll be honest and say that I have not followed the entire
>>>> thread
>>>>>> but this caught my attention.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Prey tell, what is your understanding of 'nothingness' (in
>> Buddhism)
>>>>>> and what is 'truth'(in radical empiricism)?
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> I think you need to be clear on these two concepts before you
>> burden
>>>>>> Marsha with meditating on them.
>>>>>>>>> Trying to follow Marsha's frame of mind it sounds like an eternal
>>>>>> condemnation into reified and at the
>>>>>>>>> same time relativized sq....she'll go nuts!!
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Tell me John, is this your true hidden agenda in all this?...get
>> rid
>>>> of
>>>>>> the bitch!
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
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