[MD] Step One

[Dan Glover]

Hello everyone

On Thu, Oct 14, 2010 at 1:55 PM, John Carl <ridgecoyote at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hello Dan,
>
> You're mostly right, so it's a shock when you can be so wrong.

Hi John
Well, at least you're shocked. That's a start.

>
> Dan comments:
>>
>> The shock that Phaedrus is talking about is that moment you discover
>> that you don't know what you think you know. The student knows what
>> quality is. Everyone knows what quality is. But when confronted with
>> actually explaining what quality is, they fail, just as you have
>> failed, John. The shock isn't in what is said. The shock occurs when
>> the student discovers that they cannot explain what everyone knows.
>>
>> The reason for this seems to have something to do with ego-climbing
>> versus selfless climbing. You are clowning around with the question,
>> just as Phaedrus was clowning around with the mountain.
>
>
>
> Here's where you're wrong.  You've confused my style with my motivation.

Dan:

Quite possible. But if your style is being a clown, then we have very
little to discuss. I tend to suffer fools poorly... that's my style.

>
>
>
>> You are trying
>> to best the mountain for reasons of your own instead of sensing the
>> holiness of the quest(ion). You can do better but for reasons of your
>> own, you just don't care enough.
>>
>
> Holiness Dan?  Should I light some candles or something?  Not my style.  I'm
> more along the lines of the holy goof.  Holiness freezes.  Holiness strikes
>  fear and trembling and knocks us to our knees, incapacitated, unmoving.

Dan:
No candles needed but a bit of reverence doesn't hurt.

>
> Unwriting.
>
> For what if what we said was silly or wrong?  What if my words are rejected?
>  When I care enough to write, when I care enough to think of words to
> communicate myself, I'm taking a risk.  A serious risk!  And serious things
> can only be treated with lightness.  Climbing the mountain is tough enough.
>  Bearing great burdens will not help me climb.

Dan:
I guess that is where we differ. If as you say you're taking a serious
risk, then it seems to me it might behoove you to take thngs a bit
more seriously. Write like it's the last thing you will ever do, for
it just might be. Anything less is just cheating yourself, in my
opinion, of course.

>
> You say I don't care enough!  I cared enough to try.  I cared enough to make
> the attempt.  I care enough to risk getting my paper flung back in my face
> by a scowling instructor.

Dan:
Phaedrus cared enough to take a holy journey but he didn't care enough
to realize what it was he was undertaking. That is my point, for what
it's worth.

>
> I care Dan.
>
> More than you'll ever know.  I'm sitting in a lonely, crowded house.  All
> the good stuff has been ripped out and taken away and all the junk that
> nobody knows what to do with - junk from 5 kids and 20 years of living - is
> piled around and inundates my existence.  But nevertheless I have this time,
> this precious little piece of time.  Three months.  Then I have to either
> have something to show for my time, or give it up for good and stick to
> being a truck driver for the rest of my life. All my communication with the
> world will be one-way, me listening to the radio.

Dan:
I've been alone for close to 15 years now. The home I shared with my
family is long gone. I lost it along with everything else I ever cared
about. But you know what? If I hadn't, I wouldn't be talking to you
good people right now. And slowly, I have rebuilt a life for myself
that is quite fulfilling. I see the grandkids when I can but of course
the kids are busy with their own lives. I also helped raise 5
children. As for being a trucker, it never appealed enough to me to
actually do it. I do what I can to earn a living with my hands or my
wits. I prefer my wits but as I said, I do what I can.

>And you don't think I
> care?  How could I not?  I care enough to try.  Sorry it's not good enough.
>  I'll try some more.  Meanwhile, don't you want to be a writer?  Show us how
> it's done.  Write of your own good mind, 500 words addressing the question,
> what is Quality in thought and statement.  I'm sure it'll be better than
> mine, but I don't care about ego, I care about writing. I want to see it.

Dan:
But John, I already did.

>
>
>
>
>> >John:
>>
>
>
>>   A connection
>> > beyond mere grammer's purview or control.
>>
>> Dan:
>> See what I mean? You are ego-climbing.
>>
>>
> John:
>
> No Dan.  I don't see how seeking connection with words is "ego climbing".
>  In fact, I'd say it's a description of just the opposite.  That to connect
> with an other person, I have to think about them.
>
> One of my heroes, describes it thusly:
>
> "Meaning is uncertain;  therefore I must constantly fine-tune my language
> and work at reinterpreting the words I hear.  I try to understand what the
> other person says to me.  All language is more or less a riddle to be
> figured out; it is like interpreting a text that has many possible
> meanings.  In my effort at understanding and interpretation, I establish
> definitions, and finally  a meaning.

 Dan:
Maybe we are speaking past one another. In the quote above, there are
4 'I's' and 2 'me's' so I suspect your hero is ego-climbing too. But
who knows?

>
>
> The thick haze of discourse produces meaning.
>
>
> All of intellectual life (and I use the word "all" advisedly) even that of
> specialist in the most exact sciences, is based on these instabilities,
> failures to understand, and errors in interpretation, which we must find a
> way to go beyond and overcome.
>
>
> Mistaking a person's language keeps me from "taking" the person--from taking
> him prisoner.
>
>
> We are in the presence of an infinitely and unexpectedly rich tool, so that
> the tiniest phrase unleashes an entire polyphonic gamut of meaning, The
> ambiguity of language, and even its ambivalence and its contradiction,
> between the moment it is spoken and the moment it is received produce
> extremely intense activities.  Without such activities, we would be ants or
> bees, and our drama and tragedy would quickly be dried up and empty.
>
>
> Between the moment of speech and the moment of reception are born symbol,
> metaphor and analogy.
>
>
> Through language I lay hold of two completely different objects.  I bring
> them together, establishing between them a relationship of similarity or
> even identity.  In this manner I come to know this distant, unknown object,
> through its resemblance.
>
>
> It becomes intelligible to me, because through language I have brought it
> near this other one that I know well.  Tis an astonishing process, and
> logically a foolish one.  It is obviously an indefensible operation, yet
> there it is, utterly successful, utterly enlightening."
>
> You think Ellul is just "clowning around" here, Dan?

Dan:
No. As he states, he is being logically foolish.

>
>
> Dan:
>> John, sense the holiness of the mountain and you will see that
>> explanations have nothing to do with quality. That is the shock that
>> you are refusing to see. Your ego is in the way.
>>
>
> John:
>
> Are you sure Dan?  Because earlier, in that  ZAMM quote of yours, Pirsig
> said it was almost impossible to tell the difference between the holy
> climbers and the ego climbers.  So it makes me leery of external judgements
> and I'd like to be really, really sure before I go throw myself off a cliff
> or whatever.  Perhaps it's rather that Ego is in the way.  There is Ego
> throwing up walls between us, and since you're so sure it's mine, that
> proves to me its yours.

Dan:

Of course I am not sure... it was merely an observation. No need to
fall on your knife or anything.

>
> Ego can be tricky, Dan.
>
> I think I'll try step Two.  I think I'll keep climbing this mountain.  I may
> be doing it all wrong, with my clowning, but if you ask me, the only way you
> get to the top is by enjoying the process.

Dan:
Coyote the trickster often ends up tricking only himself, or so I understand.

>
>
>
>> >John:
>> >  I'd rather sacrifice an 'A" than screw up  good rhetoric with padding.
>>
>> Dan:
>> This ain't no school and there ain't no grades. There is only the
>> selfless sense of holiness. Let that guide your writing and the answer
>> will blossom without effort.
>>
>>
> Gee Dan, that's what I thought I was doing.  But my "blossom without effort"
> looks like nothin' but weeds to you.  What can I say? That sounds like a
> trap of some kind.  What can I do?

Dan:
I already told you that. Practice reverence. That's all. Ignore me if
you want. It makes no difference in the end.

Thank you,

Dan