[MD] Step One

[118]

My father was born and raised in Holland, attended Leiden University.
 Fought in the Dutch underground as a teenager.  I do have ancestors from
Surinam.  I love the french fries met sauce in Belgium.  I lived in a
community called Marlot, which was near Wasenaar, not too far from
Scheveningen

Yes, you cannot have physics without metaphysics.  In fact it is a
metaphysics, Andrie.  Once you realize that, whole worlds open up.

Cheers,
Mark


On Sat, Oct 16, 2010 at 12:54 PM, ADRIE KINTZIGER <parser666 at gmail.com>wrote:

> Is your father native Dutch or indodutch or an islander from
> Bonaire/Curacao?
>
> My mother is Dutch, i'm a Belgian, been in The Hague many times , also in
> S'Gravenhage, Heilo, etc.
> I live on 1.5 mile of the Dutch border.
>
> Physiks/metaphysiks, you cannot have a metaphysikal world without a
> physikal
> one , Mark.
>
>
>
> 2010/10/16 118 <ununoctiums at gmail.com>
>
> > Hi Andrie,
> >
> > Yes, you may be correct, coherence is not one of my strong points.  I
> also
> > do not wish to discuss religion, and only bring it up as a foil to your
> use
> > of science.  I am more than happy to discuss based on logic.  Just don't
> > use
> > physics as if it really proves something in metaphysics.  Too many people
> > are falling into that trap.  Physics is a useful tool for communicating
> > ideas, but it is an idea in itself.
> >
> > By the way, I take it you are from Holland.  I went to elementary school
> in
> > The Hague for four years.  This was many years ago so my once semi-fluent
> > Dutch has faded.  My father is Dutch and I have fond memories of the
> Dutch
> > people.  Hope you guys are still as friendly and sensible as I remember.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Mark
> >
> > On Sat, Oct 16, 2010 at 1:18 AM, ADRIE KINTZIGER <parser666 at gmail.com
> > >wrote:
> >
> > > Well, I'v been reading the edge of chaos in the archives.
> > > Do you understand the word decoherence?
> > > Mind this , i can see a very high intellect at the same time.
> > >
> > > contemplate.
> > > Hm, other forms of knowledge/bible.
> > >
> > > The bible is not written by Jesus, nor by god,none of the value's
> within
> > > the
> > > old or new testament
> > > are representing god's or Jesus his opinion or value's.
> > > I do not dismiss them, i will not discuss them with you.
> > >
> > > I think you are clever enough to have a discussion with me , buth i
> have
> > my
> > > doubts on the coherence part.
> > > All previous evidence is against you.
> > > The edge of chaos.Hm.
> > > greetz, Adrie
> > >
> > > 2010/10/16 118 <ununoctiums at gmail.com>
> > >
> > > > Hi Andrie,
> > > >
> > > > Spoken like a true preacher, yes even preachers can build lasers.
>  Now,
> > > get
> > > > out of your pulpit and contemplate.
> > > >
> > > > Yes, light can be described by waves or particles.  The key word is
> > > > described.  One can use physics to describe reality in the same way
> the
> > > > bible can describe God.  There is no difference.  If you think that
> > there
> > > > is, you are way too deep into Scientism and need to come up for some
> > air.
> > > >  So like you can say that is very "zen" of you, I would retort well,
> > that
> > > > is
> > > > very "science" of you.  You can measure light, others can measure
> > > > spirituality, it all depends what you use as the ruler.
> > > >
> > > > So physics is a great tool for insight, but nothing more.  If you
> think
> > > you
> > > > truly understand things through physics, then perhaps consider what
> the
> > > > basis is for such understanding.  If it is things you have read in
> > books,
> > > > or
> > > > taken classes on, then this is analogous to a seminary education.
> >  Please
> > > > do
> > > > not dismiss other forms of knowledge out of hand.  We are after all
> > > talking
> > > > about MoQ, which can be enhanced by physics but certainly not proven.
> > >  Now,
> > > > I am making a lot of assumptions based on your recent posts, which is
> > not
> > > > quite right of me.  However, where does Quality come in?
> > > >
> > > > And so, you understand light.  So tell me, at what speed would light
> > > > consider itself to be traveling?  Here's a hint: speed equals
> distance
> > > (as
> > > > experienced by the traveler) divided by time (as experienced by the
> > > > traveler).  You take it from there.
> > > >
> > > > Cheers,
> > > >
> > > > Mark
> > > >
> > > > On Fri, Oct 15, 2010 at 2:51 PM, ADRIE KINTZIGER <
> parser666 at gmail.com
> > > > >wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Hi Dave,
> > > > > But this is fucking "zen" of you Dave.
> > > > >
> > > > > i'm aware of the lightcircle experiment, was done for the first
> time
> > by
> > > > > John
> > > > > Hedgecoe , a famous English fotographer.
> > > > > Hm, the Holographic analogy, strange you mention it in a
> nerd-context
> > ,
> > > > > strange , because the pioneers work from one of your ancestors in
> > > > relation
> > > > > to pumped lasers, was leading to the holographic development.
> > > > > I investigated your relative, and indeed, the work he was doeiing
> was
> > > > very
> > > > > performant and boundary stretching.
> > > > >
> > > > > The pumped lasers were my field homebase for many years. The
> > > interference
> > > > > patterns delivered by the pumped lasers
> > > > > in an opposite towards eachother pointed gunbarrel setup, created
> the
> > > > > holographic possibilities.
> > > > > I can build a ruby or an argonlaser or an yag-laser on my own
> merits
> > ,
> > > > but
> > > > > they originate, Mainmann, Einstein, your ancestor.
> > > > > Einstein was the cointosser for Maser/laser, he pointed out towards
> > the
> > > > > possibility.
> > > > >
> > > > > Pumped lasers can make a workaround for the measurementproblem,so a
> > > nobel
> > > > > for this work was well earned.
> > > > >
> > > > > Quote DMB
> > > > >
> > > > > This metaphor breaks down at a certain "point" because that
> sparkler
> > or
> > > > > point of light is not solid thing or entity either.
> > > > >
> > > > > Well , not in physiks, light is a solid thing, moving ,but
> generating
> > a
> > > > > force, a light on a surface is generating a pressurediffernce
> > > > > in opposite to shadow, lesser light , it can be measured , "it" is
> > > > present
> > > > > ,
> > > > > light has a weight and a force.It is there.
> > > > > This is commonly knowledge in science.
> > > > >
> > > > > Light cannot dissapear once it is generated, the entropycal nature
> of
> > > the
> > > > > universe does not allow it , it can only degrade to heat, warmth,
> or
> > > > other
> > > > > radiation, energy can never dissapear again.
> > > > >
> > > > > So , strictly spoken, if you are an independant observer on a
> planet
> > > > > removed
> > > > > exactly 58 lightyears away from here
> > > > > you will be able to witness the lightflash of "Ivy" the first
> nuclear
> > > > > hydrogen bombexperiment of the Us, done on Eniwetok-atol
> > > > > in 1952.
> > > > > This is the time light took for itself to travel at lightspeed,
> > 300.000
> > > > > km/sec , to reach the observer planet.
> > > > > The light is still there, still travelling, and it will appear to
> be
> > > new
> > > > > for
> > > > > the independant observer, i will deliver force, and look as a new
> > > > > expierience, a moment in the present, 58 years old,....
> > > > > The relative position of the observer.Strange? no.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > The jewels.
> > > > >
> > > > > Yes , they are like the waves.
> > > > >
> > > > > There is no wave dependant or independant from the previous, all
> > waves
> > > > are
> > > > > dependant and independant at the same moment in time.
> > > > > This goes for sound waves, light waves, pressure waves,
> > > temperaturewave's
> > > > ,
> > > > > all waves show the same caracter, all waves
> > > > > are responding to the uncertainty-principle.
> > > > > Is a wave a representation of all other wave's? no and yes at the
> > same
> > > > > time,(Heisenberg), there is  no way around this.
> > > > > No way, not since Einstein or Heisenberg.
> > > > > The old man's last question was about the wave caracter of matter.
> > > > > As in matter is energy and energy is matter, only the appearances
> are
> > > > > different(entopical principle)
> > > > > E= Mc 2, so it appears to be so that also matter is owning the
> > > > > waveformcaracter.
> > > > > (*as an aside, this is why i said earlier that quality comes in
> > waves)
> > > > >
> > > > > (E )covers all energy, all light , all movement , from a droplet of
> > > water
> > > > > to
> > > > > an ocean's wave, the movement of planets
> > > > > the movement of us, all movement , every last bit of it.Every
> > universe.
> > > > > M2 is mass square, it covers all mass, every rock, every grain of
> > sand,
> > > > > within or without the common universe, every leaf, every
> > > > > weight , every tree. So ,E and  Mc 2 covers the entire universe in
> > one
> > > > > formula and  nothing is excluded.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > So the function existence of Wiliam James, the proces is true and
> > valid
> > > ,
> > > > > energy is mass, mass is energy,light is darkness, and darkness is
> > > light,
> > > > > conciounsness is in-coinciousness, rationality is irrationality, a
> > > proces
> > > > > is
> > > > > a non-proces at the same time.
> > > > > Rationality cannot exist without irrationality, etc, expandable
> > without
> > > > > limitation.
> > > > >
> > > > > The squirrels.
> > > > >
> > > > > I'v had a peach tree for several years, a native one from Turkey,
> > > > collected
> > > > > myself in Selcuk, as a little plant, Selcuk, the cave of seven
> > > sleepers,
> > > > > Hadrianus his library, the main street to Ephesos, The statue of
> > arete.
> > > > >
> > > > > We take a little tin can, divide the peaches in two , and fill the
> > can
> > > > with
> > > > > peaches , then add porto of 42 years old, then boil it on the
> > > > > BBQ, let the peaches take the porto, allow the alcohol to boil in,
> > the
> > > > > result is superb, a native peach tree from Selcuk, Porto of 42
> years
> > > old,
> > > > > boil it in, and eat the peaches, ........this is so very "zen' of
> me,
> > > > > fucking zen, "Zen" with a capital peach letter.
> > > > >
> > > > > 110 dollar for this bottle porto is not too much, the peaches are
> > > > heavenly.
> > > > > I also have a little vineyard. But that's another story.
> > > > >
> > > > > loved the squirrel analogy , Dave, thanks
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > 2010/10/15 david buchanan <dmbuchanan at hotmail.com>
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Dan said to Ron:
> > > > > > I don't know for sure, but I would say that the selfless
> existence
> > > > > doesn't
> > > > > > mean denying the self so much as it means realizing the self
> > doesn't
> > > > > exist
> > > > > > in light of the Buddha's teachings.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > dmb says:
> > > > > > William James says that consciousness is not a thing or an entity
> > but
> > > > > > exists as a function, as a process. Alan Watts uses the image of
> a
> > > > point
> > > > > of
> > > > > > light moving in a circular motion, like a sparkler on the fourth
> of
> > > > july.
> > > > > In
> > > > > > the darkness, a steady motion can make that point look like a
> full
> > > > > circle.
> > > > > > To mistake the self as a thing or entity is like taking that
> point
> > > for
> > > > a
> > > > > > circle. This metaphor breaks down at a certain "point" because
> that
> > > > > sparkler
> > > > > > or point of light is not solid thing or entity either.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > And when you start to think of all the things that make
> > consciousness
> > > > > > possible - words, tongues, brains, sounds, gravity, food,
> mothers,
> > > > > > evolution, etc, etc, etc forever - the notion that it is some one
> > > > > particular
> > > > > > "thing" starts to seem pretty absurd. You know, this is what the
> > net
> > > of
> > > > > > jewels image means. Each jewel reflects all the other jewels and
> is
> > > > what
> > > > > it
> > > > > > is only in relation to all other jewels. Some people (nerds)
> prefer
> > > the
> > > > > > holographic analogy. I mean, the idea of co-dependent arising
> > applies
> > > > to
> > > > > the
> > > > > > self just as much as any other "thing".
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Inspired by the recent discussion concerning quality in writing,
> I
> > > > wrote
> > > > > a
> > > > > > poem. It's a meditation on my back yard and it came to me as I
> had
> > a
> > > > > > cigarette there just now. If it had a title it would be something
> > > like:
> > > > > "NOT
> > > > > > very fucking Zen of you, Dave!"
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > a peach tree grows
> > > > > > squirrels skitter
> > > > > > a garden hose
> > > > > > becomes a weapon
> > > > > > against hungry little thieves
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > P.S. The peaches were awesome. We had a peach-picking dinner
> party
> > > for
> > > > > some
> > > > > > friends. I did not invite the squirrels.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list
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> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --
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