[MD] Step One

[Dan Glover]

Hello everyone

On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 11:02 AM, MarshaV <valkyr at att.net> wrote:
>
> On Oct 20, 2010, at 10:30 AM, Dan Glover wrote:
>
>> Hello everyone
>>
>> On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 2:21 AM, MarshaV <valkyr at att.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> On Oct 19, 2010, at 4:55 PM, Dan Glover wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hello everyone
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 12:30 PM, MarshaV <valkyr at att.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> On Oct 19, 2010, at 12:48 PM, 118 wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 7:29 AM, MarshaV <valkyr at att.net> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Oct 19, 2010, at 10:23 AM, Dan Glover wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hello everyone
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 4:26 AM, MarshaV <valkyr at att.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Oct 18, 2010, at 11:39 PM, Dan Glover wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Dan:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The intellectual level is just thinking, plain and simple. You know
>>>>>>> that, John.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Marsha:
>>>>>>>>> Aren't all patterns conceptually constructed?  Wouldn't that make all
>>>>>>> levels "just thinking?"
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hi Marsha
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I would say that within the framework of the MOQ, inorganic and
>>>>>>>> biological patterns are physical. We can touch them, examine them.
>>>>>>>> Social and intellectual patterns are mental... like the President of
>>>>>>>> the United States. There is no way to physically tell the President
>>>>>>>> apart from any other human being by examination. So to answer your
>>>>>>>> question, no, not all levels are "just thinking." In addition, there
>>>>>>>> seem to social patterns of value that are not intellectual, like
>>>>>>>> saying "Bless you" when someone sneezes. Those types of patterns are
>>>>>>>> ingrained in us to the extent that we really don't think about it.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Dan
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Dan,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If I think "Should I say "Bless you." to this guy." does that make it an
>>>>>>> intellectual static pattern of value or a social static pattern of value?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Marsha
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Mark:
>>>>>> Yes.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Marsha:
>>>>> And the notion that the Intellectual Level represent theology, science, philosophy
>>>>> and mathematics has collapsed into thinking about whether to say "Bless you.",
>>>>> or not?   No, I don't buy that.
>>>>
>>>> Hi Marsha
>>>>
>>>> Sometimes in order to make the complicated a bit simpler, we start
>>>> small. I mean, there are only four levels and they contain everything
>>>> (except Dynamic Quality), so obviously we are using analogy here to
>>>> order our understanding of reality. Theology, science, philosophy and
>>>> mathematics are made up of both social and intellectual pattens. They
>>>> are often cultural-specific, as Robert Pirsig points out.
>>>>
>>>> I hope that helps.
>>>>
>>>> Dan
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Hi Dan,
>>>
>>> Marsha:
>>> In Anthony's PhD it states that science theology, mathematics and philosophy are
>>> intellectual quality patterns. So here's my understanding of the Intellectual Level:
>>>
>>> The Intellectual Level, the fourth level, is comprised of static patterns of value such
>>> as science theology, mathematics and philosophy. The way that these patterns
>>> function is as reified concepts and the rules for their rational analysis and manipulation.
>>> Reification decontextualizes.  Intellectual patterns process from a subject/object
>>> conceptual framework creating false boundaries that give the illusion of independence
>>> as a “thing” or an “object of analysis.”  The fourth level is a formalized subject/object
>>> level (SOM), where the paramount demand is for rational, objective knowledge, which
>>> is free from the taint of any subjectivity like emotions, inclinations, fears and compulsions
>>> in order to pursue study and research in an unbiased and rational manner.
>>
>> Hi Marsha
>>
>> You almost had me. I actually thought you might be getting it. But
>> then you have to throw a monkey wrench into the works and foul it all
>> up. Where in Anthony's work does it say the intellectual level is a
>> formalized SOM? Anywhere? Or are you like Bo, just picking and
>> choosing what you agree with? Maybe you and John and get together and
>> relive the old times.
>
>
> Hi Dan,
>
> My statement was:  "In Anthony's PhD it states that science, theology, mathematics:
> and philosophy are intellectual quality patterns."  (period)  Next came "So here's
> my understanding of the Intellectual Level:", which clearly labels the sentence as
> mine.  Sorry, but I don't want you, and I never stated Anthony's work suggested
> anything other than the the Intellectual Level being "science, theology, mathematics
> and philosophy".   You, on the other hand, tried to pass the Intellectual Level off
> as "just thinking."  Ant's thesis did not state that the Intellectual Level is "just thinking."

Dan:

But Robert Pirsig does! And yes, I know you don't allow much value to
the LILA'S CHILD annotations but it is there for all to see. Plain and
simple.

>
> I have a great deal of respect for Bo, and think he is correct about the Intellectual
> Level being SOM.  And not much for those who harassed him using ad hominem
> attacks.  My rationale is different than his, but we are in agreement with the main
> point.  There are many truths, and the one that I present is better than yours.   :-)

Dan:

Good for you, Marsha.

Dan

>
>
> Marsha
>
>
>
>
>
>
>>
>> Why do I bother?
>>
>> Dan
>>
>>>
>>> All patterns are interdependent so naturally there would be a relationship with social
>>> level patterns.
>>>
>>>
>>> Marsha
>>>
>>>
>>> ___
>>>
>>>
>>> Moq_Discuss mailing list
>>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
>>> Archives:
>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
>>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html
>>>
>> Moq_Discuss mailing list
>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
>> Archives:
>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html
>
>
>
> ___
>
>
> Moq_Discuss mailing list
> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
> Archives:
> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
> http://moq.org/md/archives.html
>