[MD] Knots

Mon Oct 25 21:15:51 PDT 2010

Hi Mark,

So perfect is your metaphor that it set my heart to laughing. Who was it 
who held up the flower to the Buddha.  Or how was it that without green 
all became shimmering light.  I thought quotes of sawdust were all that 
remained but you have shown me that biophysics has its answers.  And 
so does ochre yellow and terre verde.  And even quotes of sawdust.   

I think I have more to say, but now I must not think.   

Sweet dreams,   
Marsha

On Oct 25, 2010, at 8:10 PM, 118 wrote:

> Hi Marsha,
> Thanks for asking, I ended up cooking breakfast for dinner an it was a hit!
> My own personal ihop.  Yes, I like Laing.  I sometimes go to a poetry
> reading in the spiritual hills of Ojai nearby.  It's fun because we
> contribute and get positive feedback, its at night with a campfire and BYOB.
> Apparently Laing used to partake.  I would have loved to have been present
> at one of those.  But as usual, I was in the right place, but it musta been
> the wrong time..."  Not much of a dancer, however, despite the classes I
> have taken.
> 
> I would like to present a biophysics analogy.  This may not be accepted by
> MOQ, but I did start this thread and others do not have to read it.  I think
> the subject matter is appropriate since I often find the MOQ to be like one
> of those tangled fishing lines that I always seem to end up with.  If it is
> my only one, I have to patiently unravel the strings by trying to follow one
> from an end.
> 
> Being trained in bioenergetics and having received a doctorate in the
> subject I can say that I am something of an authority.  This subject deals
> with the electricity of the body, or the transfer of electrons.  As people
> we consume the same amount of electricity (in power) as does your average
> refrigerator..  What defines life that doesn't exist directly on sunlight or
> some other energy such as geothermal, is the passage of electrons from a
> level of high potential energy to one of low.  In our case, we take reduced
> substances high in electrons and transfer them to water.  The passage and
> harnessing of such flow provides energy to our systems (such as ATP, but I
> will not bore you).  So, on to my analogy
> 
> The analogy is therefore one of a waterwheel on a waterfall.  The waterwheel
> is spun by the waterfall and thus creates usable energy.  The waterfall
> signifies the flow of electrons and waterwheel is therefore alive.  Now that
> represents the physical body.  How does the sense of personal presence
> arise.  Is it the actual flow of energy itself?  and what makes it personal?
> 
> 
> Buddha did not have the analogies of physics at his time, or I am sure he
> would have used them as some do today.  However, if the universe is
> described as the interchange between energy and matter as Einstein
> suggested, then we would have to stipulate energy as having inherent
> existence.  For that matter, everything stems from energy, except its
> direction which has other laws which were put in place by the creator of
> such a system (heh, heh, had to get that in there just to be annoying).
> 
> Such energy flow has been considered to be unidirectional as described by
> entropy.  Of course there is the aberration of life which reverses such
> entropy (this negative entropy has been discussed before in this forum), but
> in a larger system such as the universe we have a general increase in
> entropy, or so they (?) say.  The black holes however seem to reverse such
> entropy through the magic of gravity, and it is quite possible that such a
> black hole is spitting out matter on another side (another universe) which
> has different laws.  But even in such a case, energy has inherent existence
> as do the laws in this universe.  Now, if we use superstring theory, we can
> say that everything stems from strings which also have inherent existence,
> and so forth.  However, at our level everything seems to be caused by
> something else which is what Buddha intuited.
> 
> This brings us back to the waterwheel on the waterfall.  Without such energy
> flow, our consciousness does not exist as it does, which does not mean it
> does not exist of course, but just not as a human scuttling across the ocean
> floor.  Any kind of conservation laws would imply that the potential for
> such consciousness always exists, and that its realization is always
> possible.  But, what makes it personal?  This is where co-dependent arising
> comes in.  The presence of the waterwheel and the water at a certain time
> all comes together as consciousness.  This would imply some kind of
> reincarnation which of course should not be dismissed unless you are a
> scientific materialist, and what do they know about such things.  So, timing
> is essential, along with the right convergence of arisings.  Once science
> figures that out, we can bring people back to life using the appropriate
> conditions.  At least one can only hope.
> 
> So, I have succeeded in explaining nothing and misleading you with the
> promise of something more, but I hope you appreciate the metaphor.
> 
> Cheers,
> Mark
> 
> On Sat, Oct 23, 2010 at 10:24 PM, MarshaV <valkyr at att.net> wrote:
> 
>> 
>> Hi Mark,
>> 
>> Wonderful!  I have KNOTS packed away somewhere, and
>> have forgotten hows insightful was Laing.  I bet you are
>> a good dancer...
>> 
>> Who are you cooking for?  I have a cousin coming to visit
>> from Michigan next week so I just assembled two small
>> lasagnas.  I was once an excellent cook, but don't do
>> much fancy cooking anymore.  It's not so much fun
>> cooking for one.
>> 
>> Marsha
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Oct 24, 2010, at 12:45 AM, 118 wrote:
>> 
>>> Hey Marsha,
>>> 
>>> Does this sound familiar to you (him and her are interchangeable)?
>> Cheers,
>>> Mark
>>> 
>>> 
>>> There must be something the matter with him
>>> 
>>> because he would not be acting as he does
>>> 
>>> unless there was
>>> 
>>> therefore he is acting as he is
>>> 
>>> because there is something the matter with him
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> He does not think there is anything the matter with him
>>> 
>>> because
>>> 
>>> one of the things that is
>>> 
>>> the matter with him
>>> 
>>> is that he does not think that there is anything
>>> 
>>> the matter with him
>>> 
>>> therefore
>>> 
>>> we have to help him realize that,
>>> 
>>> the fact that he does not think there is anything
>>> 
>>> the matter with him
>>> 
>>> is one of the things that is
>>> 
>>> the matter with him
>>> 
>>> there is something the matter with him
>>> 
>>> because he thinks
>>> 
>>> there must be something the matter with us
>>> 
>>> for trying to help him to see
>>> 
>>> that there must be something the matter with him
>>> 
>>> to think that there is something the matter with us
>>> 
>>> for trying to help him to see that
>>> 
>>> we are helping him
>>> 
>>> to see that
>>> 
>>> we are not persecuting him
>>> 
>>> by helping him
>>> 
>>> to see we are not persecuting him
>>> 
>>> by helping him
>>> 
>>> to see that
>>> 
>>> he is refusing to see
>>> 
>>> that there is something the matter with
>>> 
>>> him
>>> 
>>> for not seing there is something the matter
>>> 
>>> with him
>>> 
>>> for not being grateful to us
>>> 
>>> for at least trying to help him
>>> 
>>> to see that there is something the matter with him
>>> 
>>> for not seeing that must be something the
>>> 
>>> matter with him
>>> 
>>> for not seeing that there must be something the
>>> 
>>> matter with him
>>> 
>>> for not seeing that there is something the
>>> 
>>> matter with him
>>> 
>>> for not seeing that there is something the
>>> 
>>> matter with him
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> for not being grateful
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> that we never tried to make him
>>> 
>>> feel grateful
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>> 
>> 
>> 
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