[MD] [Bulk] Re: Knots

Wed Oct 27 07:42:16 PDT 2010

Hi Marsha,

You will find me full of surprises, I have to walk on a razor's edge
sometimes.  You have noted that physics (Wallace) is providing some support
for Eastern thought through analogies in physics.  Physics is an excellent
tool because of its high standing in our current society.  It is a matter of
convincing, and all descriptions are analogies which subscribe to common
sense.  You are correct in the assumptions of truth being held by many
scientific realists.  There are many philosophers that point out its
shortcomings.  But, if the intention is to return back to a more subjective
appreciation, any tool will do.  I am not waiting, I am just watching.  I
have not control over any crowd behavior, I don't think you do either.  But
what do I know, you may be stirring your cauldron right now (smiley face).

I believe we experience DQ through every moment of each day.  The reflective
consciousness as discussed in Vedic thought is something that I take to mean
that mirror of the world that is created in a highly structured way by our
brains in order to interact in as simple a way as needed.  Reflection may be
considered one step removed (however it can also be classified as DQ since
it happens in real time, in the present), buy how often are we reflecting?
 Out of the thousand of things that we experience every minute, only a few
of those are contemplated.  No effort is needed to obtain first hand DQ, all
it takes is some discipline in mindfulness to recognize it.  This is the Zen
way.  We have discussed this before, and indeed it is discussed in ZMM when
attention is payed to motorcycle maintenance.  If we are expecting something
more, then there are always drugs...Once they legalize Mary Jane here in CA
there may be lots of DQ, right before the car crash.

On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 12:49 AM, MarshaV <valkyr at att.net> wrote:

>
> Mark,
>
> You surprise me.  It sounds like you're going to wait for the Great White
> Scientific Hope, wearing a white hat, to ride up on his white horse,
> Physics,
> to save the day?  As best I can figure out, most physicists are still
> scientific
> realists and ignore the quantum enigmas.   It's interesting because I
> always
> thought the drive of the MoQ was to experience first-hand DQ, "pure
> experience" or the Undifferentiated Continuum, not just to talk about it.
>
>
> Marsha
>
>
>
> On Oct 26, 2010, at 7:33 PM, 118 wrote:
>
> > Hi Marsha,
> > I'll get to that book when I find it in the library, sounds interesting.
>  If
> > one were to divide metaphysics into the contemplation of the subjective
> and
> > contemplation of the objective, I would state that the pendulum has swung
> > very far into the objective.  The recent rise of esoteric religions such
> a
> > theosophy and new age dreams are adding weight to bring the pendulum back
> > down the other way.  It is indeed dark ages for subjective contemplation,
> > and in that sense, man is at a very low point at this period in time.
> > Sciences such as physics are breaking through however and it is just a
> > matter of time.  The Tao is unchangeable in the end, swinging back and
> > forth.
> >
> > Mark
> >
> > On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 1:20 PM, MarshaV <valkyr at att.net> wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> Hi Mark,
> >>
> >> Why wait for some scientific future to come true when there is an
> >> immediate need.  There is this twenty-five hundred-year-old
> >> tradition that has been working on just such a science of mind.
> >> From what little I understand they use both rationality and special
> >> introspective techniques.  To remind you:
> >>
> >>
> >>   "Upon first learning of mental states described in traditions outside
> of
> >> one's, there is a natural tendency to seek counterparts in one's own
> >> background or in the knowledge of one's native culture.  For many people
> it
> >> si difficult to acknowledge the possibility that the attainment of
> >> quiescence may have no counterpart in Western civilization, that the
> >> contemplative science of ancient India made advances that the West has
> not
> >> duplicated.  Especially over the past five hundred years, the West has
> made
> >> tremendous advances in developing physical instruments to aid us in
> >> exploring the world.  Such research instruments have enabled us to probe
> >> deeply into the nature of physical phenomena, but they offer no direct
> >> access to mental events.  The mind is the only instrument capable of
> >> examining all types of natural events --- including both the physical
> and
> >> mental.  But in terms of refining human awareness in the development of
> >> stability and clarity as described above, Western civllization has made
> no
> >> progress since the Scientific Revolution.  In this field of
> contemplative
> >> science ours is a backward, underdeveloped culture.  If we wish to
> explore
> >> these Buddhist theories and practices further, we are well advised to
> >> proceed not with blink faith, but with our full powers of critical
> >> intelligence.  In so doing we follow the advice that the Buddha gave to
> his
> >> monks when he counseled:
> >>
> >>    O monks, sages accept my words after examining them well--
> >>    like gold after it has been melted, cut and rubbed--but not out
> >>    of devotion [for me].
> >>
> >> (Wallace, B. Alan, 'Choosing Reality, : A Buddhist View of Physics and
> the
> >> Mind',2003,pp.198-199)
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Oct 26, 2010, at 12:08 PM, 118 wrote:
> >>
> >>> There is some discussion on the use of the subject-object analogy in
> MOQ
> >>> discuss, and the attributes of Value to such an analogy.  This bears
> >> inquiry
> >>> as it could also be interpreted that such an analogy is at the heart of
> >> many
> >>> religions.  This SO divide brings out the search for the true
> subjective.
> >>> Vedic philosophy can be interpreted to have assigned such subjective
> the
> >>> “I”.  That is the “I” that is witnessing what I appear to be.  In such
> >>> philosophy, that subject is compared to a vibration or a hum.  Buddhist
> >>> thought which arose from such Eastern tradition, used intelligent
> thought
> >> to
> >>> describe the subjective as not inherently existent, and described such
> a
> >>> concept with a co-dependent arising metaphor.  More recently, Christian
> >>> metaphors were interpreted by Kierkegaard, who proposed that the
> ultimate
> >>> union of the subjective and objective could be achieved through extreme
> >>> belief and devotion, requiring a leap.  Much existentialist
> >> interpretation
> >>> followed his lead, including Heidegger’s “Being”.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> In terms as what is referred to as Western philosophy, it is the
> opinion
> >> of
> >>> this author that the subject-object analogy was converted to an
> >>> object-object description.  That is the comparison of two objects.
>  Plato
> >>> provided such description by objectifying the subjective.  More
> recently,
> >>> Descartes further congealed the objectification of subjectivity by
> >> defining
> >>> it as thought.  The statement “I think, therefore I am” suggests that
> >>> thinking is the underlying presence of self.  Previously, in the
> Eastern
> >>> thought described above, thinking was something that the self
> experienced
> >> as
> >>> an object.  The description of the objectified sense of thought as the
> >>> subjective sense of "I" has more recently led to notions by scientific
> >>> materialism that the self can be explained physically through
> appropriate
> >>> investigation into the brain itself.  Such studies are ongoing, but
> >>> difficult.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Western considerations of the subject-object confused the subject with
> >> the
> >>> object.  The metaphorical root of this transition could arise from the
> >> use
> >>> of language.  As a matter of logistics, language must express the
> subject
> >>> object idea as object-object to be useful.  Subject-object Metaphysics
> >>> cannot be discussed without the objectifying of the subjective side.
> >>> Indeed, the conversion of thought into words is a process of
> >>> objectification.  Is this  notion therefore something that creates a
> >>> roadblock and cannot be truly discussed due to the structure of
> language,
> >>> and something that we have no control over?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Perhaps, but consider the following thought experiment (science fiction
> >> as a
> >>> metaphor).  At some time in the future, the principle of telepathy will
> >> have
> >>> been understood and harnessed.  There would be direct communication
> >> between
> >>> brains through some kind of brain-wave harnessing.  Would such
> >> communication
> >>> be in the form of words?  The answer is no.  There would be no need for
> >>> words since entire awareness could be communicated.  Words would be
> >> bypassed
> >>> so that entire appreciations could be conveyed such as the sense one
> gets
> >>> when looking at a painting.  This would mean that thoughts as words
> would
> >>> not be necessary, and words would only be used temporarily over long
> >>> distances if there were no other means of communication.  Such words
> >> would
> >>> be considered primitive communication, like the telegraph is now.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> The awareness of how words form our subject-object metaphysics is, in
> the
> >>> opinion of this author, a fruitful interpretation which is provided as
> >>> analogy.  Through the development of such metaphors it is possible to
> >>> appreciate (or create) some more meaningful underlying principles (or
> >>> metaphors).
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> The opinions expressed in this post are the author's and do not
> >> necessarily
> >>> represent positions of the MOQ.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Mark
> >>> Moq_Discuss mailing list
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> >>
> >>
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