[MD] Knots
MarshaV
valkyr at att.net
Wed Oct 27 10:19:06 PDT 2010
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IgCrI4Za-f8&feature=related
On Oct 27, 2010, at 1:08 PM, 118 wrote:
> No, no answers, just ideas. I use you guys to help me out. Your posts are
> like gold.
>
> Mark
>
> On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 8:37 AM, MarshaV <valkyr at att.net> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> It seems like you have all the answers already. Okay.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Oct 27, 2010, at 10:42 AM, 118 wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Marsha,
>>>
>>> You will find me full of surprises, I have to walk on a razor's edge
>>> sometimes. You have noted that physics (Wallace) is providing some
>> support
>>> for Eastern thought through analogies in physics. Physics is an
>> excellent
>>> tool because of its high standing in our current society. It is a matter
>> of
>>> convincing, and all descriptions are analogies which subscribe to common
>>> sense. You are correct in the assumptions of truth being held by many
>>> scientific realists. There are many philosophers that point out its
>>> shortcomings. But, if the intention is to return back to a more
>> subjective
>>> appreciation, any tool will do. I am not waiting, I am just watching. I
>>> have not control over any crowd behavior, I don't think you do either.
>> But
>>> what do I know, you may be stirring your cauldron right now (smiley
>> face).
>>>
>>> I believe we experience DQ through every moment of each day. The
>> reflective
>>> consciousness as discussed in Vedic thought is something that I take to
>> mean
>>> that mirror of the world that is created in a highly structured way by
>> our
>>> brains in order to interact in as simple a way as needed. Reflection may
>> be
>>> considered one step removed (however it can also be classified as DQ
>> since
>>> it happens in real time, in the present), buy how often are we
>> reflecting?
>>> Out of the thousand of things that we experience every minute, only a few
>>> of those are contemplated. No effort is needed to obtain first hand DQ,
>> all
>>> it takes is some discipline in mindfulness to recognize it. This is the
>> Zen
>>> way. We have discussed this before, and indeed it is discussed in ZMM
>> when
>>> attention is payed to motorcycle maintenance. If we are expecting
>> something
>>> more, then there are always drugs...Once they legalize Mary Jane here in
>> CA
>>> there may be lots of DQ, right before the car crash.
>>>
>>> On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 12:49 AM, MarshaV <valkyr at att.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Mark,
>>>>
>>>> You surprise me. It sounds like you're going to wait for the Great
>> White
>>>> Scientific Hope, wearing a white hat, to ride up on his white horse,
>>>> Physics,
>>>> to save the day? As best I can figure out, most physicists are still
>>>> scientific
>>>> realists and ignore the quantum enigmas. It's interesting because I
>>>> always
>>>> thought the drive of the MoQ was to experience first-hand DQ, "pure
>>>> experience" or the Undifferentiated Continuum, not just to talk about
>> it.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Marsha
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Oct 26, 2010, at 7:33 PM, 118 wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi Marsha,
>>>>> I'll get to that book when I find it in the library, sounds
>> interesting.
>>>> If
>>>>> one were to divide metaphysics into the contemplation of the subjective
>>>> and
>>>>> contemplation of the objective, I would state that the pendulum has
>> swung
>>>>> very far into the objective. The recent rise of esoteric religions
>> such
>>>> a
>>>>> theosophy and new age dreams are adding weight to bring the pendulum
>> back
>>>>> down the other way. It is indeed dark ages for subjective
>> contemplation,
>>>>> and in that sense, man is at a very low point at this period in time.
>>>>> Sciences such as physics are breaking through however and it is just a
>>>>> matter of time. The Tao is unchangeable in the end, swinging back and
>>>>> forth.
>>>>>
>>>>> Mark
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 1:20 PM, MarshaV <valkyr at att.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Mark,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Why wait for some scientific future to come true when there is an
>>>>>> immediate need. There is this twenty-five hundred-year-old
>>>>>> tradition that has been working on just such a science of mind.
>>>>>> From what little I understand they use both rationality and special
>>>>>> introspective techniques. To remind you:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Upon first learning of mental states described in traditions outside
>>>> of
>>>>>> one's, there is a natural tendency to seek counterparts in one's own
>>>>>> background or in the knowledge of one's native culture. For many
>> people
>>>> it
>>>>>> si difficult to acknowledge the possibility that the attainment of
>>>>>> quiescence may have no counterpart in Western civilization, that the
>>>>>> contemplative science of ancient India made advances that the West has
>>>> not
>>>>>> duplicated. Especially over the past five hundred years, the West has
>>>> made
>>>>>> tremendous advances in developing physical instruments to aid us in
>>>>>> exploring the world. Such research instruments have enabled us to
>> probe
>>>>>> deeply into the nature of physical phenomena, but they offer no direct
>>>>>> access to mental events. The mind is the only instrument capable of
>>>>>> examining all types of natural events --- including both the physical
>>>> and
>>>>>> mental. But in terms of refining human awareness in the development
>> of
>>>>>> stability and clarity as described above, Western civllization has
>> made
>>>> no
>>>>>> progress since the Scientific Revolution. In this field of
>>>> contemplative
>>>>>> science ours is a backward, underdeveloped culture. If we wish to
>>>> explore
>>>>>> these Buddhist theories and practices further, we are well advised to
>>>>>> proceed not with blink faith, but with our full powers of critical
>>>>>> intelligence. In so doing we follow the advice that the Buddha gave
>> to
>>>> his
>>>>>> monks when he counseled:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> O monks, sages accept my words after examining them well--
>>>>>> like gold after it has been melted, cut and rubbed--but not out
>>>>>> of devotion [for me].
>>>>>>
>>>>>> (Wallace, B. Alan, 'Choosing Reality, : A Buddhist View of Physics and
>>>> the
>>>>>> Mind',2003,pp.198-199)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Oct 26, 2010, at 12:08 PM, 118 wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There is some discussion on the use of the subject-object analogy in
>>>> MOQ
>>>>>>> discuss, and the attributes of Value to such an analogy. This bears
>>>>>> inquiry
>>>>>>> as it could also be interpreted that such an analogy is at the heart
>> of
>>>>>> many
>>>>>>> religions. This SO divide brings out the search for the true
>>>> subjective.
>>>>>>> Vedic philosophy can be interpreted to have assigned such subjective
>>>> the
>>>>>>> “I”. That is the “I” that is witnessing what I appear to be. In
>> such
>>>>>>> philosophy, that subject is compared to a vibration or a hum.
>> Buddhist
>>>>>>> thought which arose from such Eastern tradition, used intelligent
>>>> thought
>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> describe the subjective as not inherently existent, and described
>> such
>>>> a
>>>>>>> concept with a co-dependent arising metaphor. More recently,
>> Christian
>>>>>>> metaphors were interpreted by Kierkegaard, who proposed that the
>>>> ultimate
>>>>>>> union of the subjective and objective could be achieved through
>> extreme
>>>>>>> belief and devotion, requiring a leap. Much existentialist
>>>>>> interpretation
>>>>>>> followed his lead, including Heidegger’s “Being”.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In terms as what is referred to as Western philosophy, it is the
>>>> opinion
>>>>>> of
>>>>>>> this author that the subject-object analogy was converted to an
>>>>>>> object-object description. That is the comparison of two objects.
>>>> Plato
>>>>>>> provided such description by objectifying the subjective. More
>>>> recently,
>>>>>>> Descartes further congealed the objectification of subjectivity by
>>>>>> defining
>>>>>>> it as thought. The statement “I think, therefore I am” suggests that
>>>>>>> thinking is the underlying presence of self. Previously, in the
>>>> Eastern
>>>>>>> thought described above, thinking was something that the self
>>>> experienced
>>>>>> as
>>>>>>> an object. The description of the objectified sense of thought as
>> the
>>>>>>> subjective sense of "I" has more recently led to notions by
>> scientific
>>>>>>> materialism that the self can be explained physically through
>>>> appropriate
>>>>>>> investigation into the brain itself. Such studies are ongoing, but
>>>>>>> difficult.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Western considerations of the subject-object confused the subject
>> with
>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> object. The metaphorical root of this transition could arise from
>> the
>>>>>> use
>>>>>>> of language. As a matter of logistics, language must express the
>>>> subject
>>>>>>> object idea as object-object to be useful. Subject-object
>> Metaphysics
>>>>>>> cannot be discussed without the objectifying of the subjective side.
>>>>>>> Indeed, the conversion of thought into words is a process of
>>>>>>> objectification. Is this notion therefore something that creates a
>>>>>>> roadblock and cannot be truly discussed due to the structure of
>>>> language,
>>>>>>> and something that we have no control over?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Perhaps, but consider the following thought experiment (science
>> fiction
>>>>>> as a
>>>>>>> metaphor). At some time in the future, the principle of telepathy
>> will
>>>>>> have
>>>>>>> been understood and harnessed. There would be direct communication
>>>>>> between
>>>>>>> brains through some kind of brain-wave harnessing. Would such
>>>>>> communication
>>>>>>> be in the form of words? The answer is no. There would be no need
>> for
>>>>>>> words since entire awareness could be communicated. Words would be
>>>>>> bypassed
>>>>>>> so that entire appreciations could be conveyed such as the sense one
>>>> gets
>>>>>>> when looking at a painting. This would mean that thoughts as words
>>>> would
>>>>>>> not be necessary, and words would only be used temporarily over long
>>>>>>> distances if there were no other means of communication. Such words
>>>>>> would
>>>>>>> be considered primitive communication, like the telegraph is now.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The awareness of how words form our subject-object metaphysics is, in
>>>> the
>>>>>>> opinion of this author, a fruitful interpretation which is provided
>> as
>>>>>>> analogy. Through the development of such metaphors it is possible to
>>>>>>> appreciate (or create) some more meaningful underlying principles (or
>>>>>>> metaphors).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The opinions expressed in this post are the author's and do not
>>>>>> necessarily
>>>>>>> represent positions of the MOQ.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Mark
>>>>>>> Moq_Discuss mailing list
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>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
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