[MD] The Dynamics of Value

Thu Oct 28 11:14:49 PDT 2010

Marsha

If you would like a kind of exact definition, I'm not sure I can give it.
I'm just trying to relate some of the opinions held by those calling
themselves social relativists, that I have met.
But I could try to define it as "the view that every pattern found within
any civilization can't be said to somehow be better than any other such
pattern".
And then I could add: in my view they don't make any distinction between
social and intellectual.

/A

(as a parenthesis: that slash before the A just means "signed" and the A is
the initial of my first name)

-----Original Message-----
From: moq_discuss-bounces at lists.moqtalk.org
[mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at lists.moqtalk.org] On Behalf Of MarshaV
Sent: den 28 oktober 2010 14:24
To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
Subject: Re: [MD] The Dynamics of Value

/A

It sounds like what you mean by 'social relativism' is a culture being 
socially oriented rather than intellectually oriented?   I was looking 
for your definition, which I don't think is clear yet.     

As far as the World mess:  I think it will stay a mess until the subject/
object point-of-view is transcended.  Having said that, within the MoQ
intellectual patterns are a higher value than social patterns.  

As far as your statements about who has got the moral high ground, I could
argue with your comments, but I will pass.  I've given up my 
political soap box.   

Marsha 

On Oct 28, 2010, at 7:20 AM, Alexander Jarnroth wrote:

> Marsha
> 
> I think many people in "The West", at least here, seem to have given 
> up the idea of intellectual supremacy and accepted the notion of just 
> "social supremacy". By doing so, I believe, they have also lost their 
> intellectual supremacy. What they should have done, was to have faith 
> in their intellectual supremacy and fight only at that level, with 
> words rather than weapons. Then I think the populations of Muslim 
> countries by themselves would embrace the principle of intellectual
supremacy over social patterns.
> When Europe conquered Muslim countries originally it wasn't, of 
> course, because of any intellectual supremacy. They did it for the 
> same reason that people from Muslim countries now migrates to Europe. 
> That reason was: at the time the demographic growth in Europe was much 
> larger than in the rest of the world: not the same is true of Muslim 
> countries. These migration patterns, then, would have the biological 
> "the right of the strongest" kind of moral, just as the colonialism 
> had, and would then just be a biological pattern, having nothing much 
> to do with neither social nor intellectual patterns.
> 
> One reason this question is so much discussed here in Sweden right 
> now, is that a nationalistic party has taken seats in the parliament. 
> I, and many others, doesn't really like them. But I think that they 
> criticize these "nationalist" at the wrong basis: that is from the 
> social relativist point of view. What these nationalists want to stop 
> all migration from non-European countries and that we should try to 
> save "Swedish culture" from the "threat of Islamism".
> I know people from both sides of this conflict and I think that they 
> both are right in different ways. MoQ gives a way to overcome that
"cleft".
> The situation is kind of the same with the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
> Israel, being morally superior, should neither fight with the "right 
> of the strongest" nor with any kind of "social patterns" against the 
> Hamas, Hezbollah or Iran. What they OUGHT to do is showing by example 
> the supremacy of intellect over social values. Then, I think, the 
> populations of Palestine, Lebanon and Iran would be strengthen against 
> their governments or "pseudo-governments". This is actually a 
> particular case when I thing the MoQ has improved my understanding
greatly.
> Both sides are doing the wrong thing, but for different reasons and 
> from different perspectives.
> 
> /A
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: moq_discuss-bounces at lists.moqtalk.org
> [mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at lists.moqtalk.org] On Behalf Of MarshaV
> Sent: den 28 oktober 2010 12:38
> To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
> Subject: Re: [MD] The Dynamics of Value
> 
> 
> /A,
> 
> I agree that a cultural relativism that determines all perspectives 
> have equal value is ridiculous, but that is an exaggerated point-of-view.
> 
> Seems to me the MoQ judges a culture based on patterns, and there is 
> always a mix of social and intellectual patterns within a culture.  I 
> imagine Islam is a mix of social and intellectual patterns just like
Western cultures.
> 
> And why do you think the West has invaded and is occupying the Middle
East?
> For some intellectual principle?  If you think the sole reason for the 
> conflict in the MiddleEast is "Islamists are fighting for the social 
> systems supremacy over intellect" you might check your
> own biases.   Seems the U.S. killed some budding democracies 
> when it suited their purposes, and those purposes were not 
> intellectual.      
> 
> imho
> 
> 
> Marsha
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Oct 28, 2010, at 6:04 AM, Alexander Jarnroth wrote:
> 
>> In the way I perceive it, it says that any culture is as good as any
> other.
>> Every pattern of society should be considered a social construction. 
>> I've been arguing a lot with people terming themselves
> "deconstructionists"
>> because they want to free people from social constraints. But to me, 
>> the opposite of construct is destruct. To me the social relativists 
>> are the precursors of these destructionists. In Sweden we have this 
>> debate concerning Muslims and Jews. Those on the Muslim side call the 
>> others "islamophobs" and those on the Jewish side, call the others
> "antisemitists".
>> Those on the Muslim side, says the it's just "social chauvinism" to 
>> say that a state based on democratic principles which propose human 
>> rights and so on, is better than a Islamic state proposing rule by 
>> Sharia. That's social relativism to them Human rights, democracy and 
>> the such, to them, is just a social construct.
>> These "deconstructionists" on the other hand, seem just to hate 
>> everything in society. In Sweden they are left wing, and they love to 
>> use violence and vandalism against almost anything. They try to 
>> induce some kind of social uprising and the destruction of the state.
>> 
>> From my former stance, however, I couldn't really debate them. Of 
>> course I could say to the deconstructionists, that without a state, 
>> most people living today would die, because they are materially 
>> dependent
> on the system.
>> But what could I say to the social relativist?
>> To me it doesn't matter if you celebrate Christmas, Pesach or Eid 
>> al-Fitr - in that case I could be "relativist". But what concerns the 
>> freedom of speech and such things, I can't even try to grasp it. I 
>> can try to "understand" how people living in other systems think, but 
>> I wouldn't like to call them "as right" as anyone else.
>> Take, for instance, the speech made by Mahmoud Ahmadinejad in Lebanon 
>> recently. You could take any mentions of "God" and replace it with
> "the/our"
>> social system, and it would still make perfect sense - it would make 
>> even more sense.
>> Seen through the MoQ, these Islamists are fighting for the social 
>> systems supremacy over intellect - but according to MoQ it should be 
>> the other way around.
>> Suddenly I have an argument against these relativist, who claims that 
>> it doesn't really matter. That freedom of speech and the such are 
>> just social patterns, as good as any other.
>> 
>> /A
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: moq_discuss-bounces at lists.moqtalk.org
>> [mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at lists.moqtalk.org] On Behalf Of MarshaV
>> Sent: den 28 oktober 2010 11:44
>> To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
>> Subject: Re: [MD] The Dynamics of Value
>> 
>> 
>> /A,
>> 
>> What is your definition of social relativism?
>> 
>> 
>> Marsha   
>> 
> 
> 
> ___
> 
> 
> Moq_Discuss mailing list
> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
> Archives:
> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
> http://moq.org/md/archives.html
> 
> Moq_Discuss mailing list
> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
> Archives:
> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
> http://moq.org/md/archives.html

___

Moq_Discuss mailing list
Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
Archives:
http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
http://moq.org/md/archives.html