[MD] The whole yin yang thing

[John Carl]

How do you know what John really wants Marsha?

Boy, for somebody who objects to projecting...



On Wed, Sep 1, 2010 at 5:51 AM, MarshaV <valkyr at att.net> wrote:

>
>
>
> Go for it, Mary.  You can offer John the discussion he really wants.
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sep 1, 2010, at 8:25 AM, Mary wrote:
>
> > Hi John,
> >
> > You are right that women are the traditional culture-bearers, but
> something
> > seems wrong or incomplete about saying that we should basically blame the
> > victim.  Reams of feminist literature has been written to refute the line
> of
> > argument you've made here, and at the moment I only have a vague
> > recollection of any of it, but something about your formulation doesn't
> ring
> > true.  I wonder if we can figure out what it is without quoting Gloria
> > Steinem?
> >
> > Best,
> > Mary
> >
> >> Marsha,
> >>
> >> I'd like to just sorta start from scratch on a few issues that you
> >> brought
> >> up, without doing the whole line by line thing.  I wanna talk about
> >> your
> >> charges of the oppression of women through patriarchical organizations
> >> of
> >> politics and religion, especially religion.  And I figure the best
> >> place to
> >> start is by looking at what I'd call our predessesors, the victorians.
> >> It
> >> doesn't make as much sense to discuss the fallout of mesopatamian
> >> attitudes
> >> toward women, they're so far removed their effects have been blunted.
> >> The
> >> victorians, on the other hand, we feel more immediately present.    Not
> >> to
> >> mention, the Lila connection.
> >>
> >> Furthermore, I'd say the victorian culture most exemplified the kinds
> >> of
> >> oppression you describe of  masculine denigration of women to mere
> >> roles in
> >> kitchen and bedroom.   Primogeniture and all that.
> >>
> >>
> >> However, I think you are mischaracterizing this as "male" domination -
> >> I
> >> think, much more you are seeing patterns of feminine domination of
> >> society -
> >> other women, than you are male patterns.    You do know Victoria was a
> >> woman, don't you?  You blame religion all the time, but you know who
> >> the
> >> real church goers are?  Go sometime.  Look around.  It's almost all
> >> women.
> >> And if you looked deeper into the relationships, the men who are there
> >> are
> >> there because their wives dragged them.  They'd much rather be at home
> >> watching tv.  It's probably always been like that.
> >>
> >>
> >> Do you honestly think men came up with rules about strictly covering
> >> female
> >> flesh?  Hah!  Believe me, if men were in charge the rules would be way
> >> more
> >> lax.  Even during the Victorian era.  Concerns of fashion
> >> appropriateness is
> >> women controlling other women's dress.  Well, until modern times.  I
> >> think
> >> gay men are in charge now, and I must say it's an improvement!
> >>
> >> You think it's men who burn witches?  It's usually women who gossip
> >> about
> >> the outcast or gang up with social networks to ostracize the different
> >> other.   Men just give them the muscle and intellectual justification
> >> to get
> >> it done.    It's this way because it's in  women's interest to rein in
> >> the
> >> purely biological urges in the interest of a social arrangement.  The
> >> human
> >> infant is the longest-developing in infancy of any animal, and it takes
> >> teamwork to survive while raising one.  Therefore the woman has the
> >> most
> >> vested interest in social controls, and it's women who shape the
> >> society's
> >> leanings.
> >>
> >> Also, women are just more in tune with social cues and facial
> >> expressions
> >> and communicating from infancy.
> >>
> >> Until they find a way to raise children in test tubes or whatever, men
> >> need
> >> women and the acceptance by a woman has always been the driver behind
> >> all
> >> civilizing progress, all intellectual or athletic competition among
> >> males.
> >> So what you see as a male dominated society, I see as a female-
> >> dominated
> >> one.
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