[MD] From Psychology to Empiricism

[MarshaV]

Andre, 

I do miss Bo.  Because he kept the discussion centered on the MoQ's being beyond SOM, and the MoQ's understanding transcending subject/object metaphysical thinking, and as Wikipedia clearly states:  

    "Robert M. Pirsig's philosophy of the Metaphysics of Quality is largely concerned with the subject-object problem."  
         (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subject-object_problem) 


Marsha
 
 
 
 


On Sep 3, 2010, at 1:53 PM, MarshaV wrote:

> 
> 
> Andre,
> 
> To state it again, on the highest level I understand the MoQ as Quality(upatterned experience/patterned experience.)  But from my experience, you may be correct when you say "reality is not composed of anything."  Patterns are illusion, and even Emptiness is empty.  The MoQ as explained intellectually is illusion, but one I think very useful in its explanation.  And my interpretation of the Intellectual Level I also find very useful because:
> 
> "One can then examine intellectual realities the same way he examines paintings in an art gallery, not with an effort to find out which one is the ‘real’ painting, but simply to enjoy and keep those that are of value. There are many sets of intellectual reality in existence and we can perceive some to have more quality than others, but that we do so is, in part, the result of our history and current patterns of values. (Pirsig, 1991, p.103)”
>        (McWatt,Anthony,MOQ Textbook)  
> 
> And surely you wouldn't expect my understanding to change because dmb, Arlo, Ron, Dan or the Pope think differently.  My mind doesn't work like that.   
> 
> 
> Marsha  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Sep 3, 2010, at 1:18 PM, MarshaV wrote:
> 
>> 
>> Andre,
>> 
>> I understand the MoQ to Quality(unpatterned experience/patterned experience).  I understand static patterns one way, you understand them another.   Intellectual Static Patterns of Value are reified concepts and the rules for their rational analysis and manipulation.  Intellectual patterns process from a subject/object conceptual framework creating false boundaries that give the illusion of independence, or 'thingness'. The fourth level is a formalized subject/object level (SOM), where the paramount demand is for rational, objective knowledge, which is free from the taint of any subjectivity.
>> 
>> As far as I know intellectual patterns are as I stated above, and I have seen no evidence to the contrary.   Have you presented an intellectual pattern that transcends a subject/object representation of reality, excluding art which may use intellectual patterns but also makes use of inorganic, biological and social patterns and often goes beyond.  Where is your evidence?  Let's see you demonstrate an intellectual pattern that does not reify concepts, that does not create a self involved in analyzing such concepts, or does not represent the rules for such manipulation?  You cannot do it, because the minute you've begun you have divided and formed an object and an analyzing self.  
>> 
>> 
>> Marsha
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Sep 3, 2010, at 12:50 PM, Andre Broersen wrote:
>> 
>>> Marsha to Andre:
>>> 
>>> "As mentioned above, Pirsig considers any philosophy that asserts that reality is composed from mind or matter or a combination of both is an SOM philosophy."
>>>  (McWatt, PhD Thesis 2005, p119)
>>> 
>>> Andre:
>>> So what are you saying Marsha? Or are you, as ever, continuing your soliloquize?
>>> 
>>> The point of the whole thing is that reality is to be found in EXPERIENCE...and as soon as you are trying to find it and have found it, it is gone. Reality isn't 'composed' of anything. Do you need your SOL shit to have that confirmed? Christ almighty, for fuck sake, do not bother us with the 'I miss Bo' crap!
>>> 
>>> Pirsig 'observed' in passing...what had happened (and he named it SOM) and you, and Bo, and Mary have stuck to that as Revelation itself. For goodness sake...this is the MOQ. Some on this list have passed that subject-object stuff long, long ago...as certainly dmb and Arlo, Ron and Dan are trying to make clear. ( of course I have missed people...that is the intellectual level for ya).
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Moq_Discuss mailing list
>>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
>>> Archives:
>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
>>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> ___
>> 
>> 
>> Moq_Discuss mailing list
>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
>> Archives:
>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html
> 
> 
> 
> ___
> 
> 
> Moq_Discuss mailing list
> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
> Archives:
> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
> http://moq.org/md/archives.html


 
___