[MD] Where I'm at [Administrator Message]

[Horse]

  Hi Krim

On 14/09/2010 17:27, Krimel wrote:
> [Horse]
> You're completely wrong about who has a right to say what on this forum.
> This is a place to discuss Robert Pirsigs MoQ and not just every single
> thing that comes into anyone's head.
> I give a great deal of latitude to most people here but there are times
> at which I think it's reasonable to step in and enforce what I consider
> to be reasonable behaviour.
>
> [Krimel]
> You are of course quite right we all serve here at your discretion. My outburst was mainly an expression of my own core belief in the value of free speech. I do not hold that Value as a matter of personal convenience. I take it to mean that in order to have my own right to speak I have to suffer with listening to people, who I think, often use their freedom unwisely. As moderator of this forum you obviously have the power to rule as you see fit and I support about 95% of your exercise of that power. I don't agree with some of the decisions you have made but I don't question your right to make them.

I agree completely with what you say about freedom of speech and will 
always support both the principle and practice. But for any freedom, 
both to and from, there are limits that are dictated by circumstances. I 
mentioned al-Qaeda and paedophiles in a recent post and would deny 
neither of them or their members the right to speak freely about their 
beliefs. But MD is not the place for that or for a number of other 
subjects.
95% is a pretty good score in my book which makes me think that I must 
have done a reasonable job. I completely accept that not all my 
decisions will be acceptable to everyone but I don't make those 
decisions either lightly or with malice. With regard to some of the more 
controversial decisions, I have spent time thinking about whether I'm 
doing the right thing and decided that, in the long run, it is the right 
thing to do. I'm rarely, if ever, happy about kicking someone off the 
list or becoming heavy-handed when trying to keep order but sometimes 
it's necessary.

> I have not belabored these disagreements in part because they are not strongly held and in part because I do respect your right to make them. I was not around for the Bradford debacle, so I really am out of line there. With regard to Squonk, as I recall, he was banned for his tone and terminology. But I think in retrospect the substance of what he was saying has proven to be more correct than not.

Squonk wasn't banned for either, but for refusing to take a particular 
personal problem off-list when requested multiple times. He was also 
re-instated more than once after agreeing to my conditions and then 
promptly ignoring them. I liked Squonk a lot but felt that his behaviour 
was completely unacceptable. His behaviour in the past has caused me to 
lose trust that he will behave reasonably now or in the future. Hence my 
action.

> Tinfoil hat dude had been a member of this forum since at least 2006. While it did seem that here was another Moqer having a mental breakdown it was never clear to me what he was going on about or why it took so few posts to have him removed.

Laramie Loewen (tin foil hat dude) didn't contribute for over 3 years 
from the beginning of 2007 (I believe) and then returned with the Prison 
Planet posts. I asked him to explain what was the relevance to the MoQ 
of what he was promoting and was ignored so I put him on moderation (not 
banned) and thereafter every post was in the same vein. He then 
threatened me and became abusive a short while ago so I removed him from 
the list after sending him an email of the same type he sent me, i.e. 
abusive. Whether he's having some sort of breakdown or not I don't 
consider that to be justification for what he said to me and his threats.

I want MD to be a place where members can be socially involved as well 
as intellectually engaged - that way we build a worthwhile community. I 
don't get stroppy about the number of social posts because that's the 
way a community grows - through social interaction, albeit virtual. But 
sometimes it can get more social than intellectual and a good balance 
needs to be struck.
That's why I'm here as the moderator.

> Bo was not banned of course but it was clear that no matter what, it was coming. The conditions of his staying were that he not to claim that Pirsig endorsed his position and yet what he usually said was that his position was consistent with "young Phaedrus" as opposed to "old Pirsig" but even making that distinction was not sufficient.

I would have preferred that Bo stayed and behaved reasonably and within 
the rules that I set out. I didn't construct those rules in order to get 
rid of him but to make him and his adherents (and all list members) 
reduce the traffic on a position that was pissing most people off and 
had run it's course - in my opinion. Bo had a shot at defending his 
position and failed for the most part. After 12 years I decided it was 
time to shift it to one side and move on. And, be fair, how many 
moderators on mailing lists would have let it go on that long.

> Again those are your calls.
>
> On the other hand there has been a disturbing tendency of late for people to urge you to further action often for trivial reasons, calls to ban Marsha for spamming, calls to ban Platt for being... well, for being Platt. Call to ban me for being an asshole... So it isn't just your use of power that I see as a problem but the expectation by some that you will and ought to use those powers more often. That, to me, is an example of what you said: "...they are expected to behave reasonably and not like a bunch of fucking 3 year olds, which is what has been happening recently."

All of the people you mention are still here so whether or not someone 
is calling for banning this person or that person makes little 
difference to me if I don't think they should be banned. What others may 
expect of me and what I actually do are separate things. I will always 
make my decisions based on what I think is the right thing to do and not 
what others expect or try and force me to do. And I'm very stubborn 
about this.
My comment about " fucking 3 year olds" was not just directed here 
anyway, it was directed at the way many of the MD posts and discussions 
are conducted. The sniping, the bitchiness, the evasion, the provocation 
, the snide remarks, the attempted bullying...........
I think many of the people posting to this forum need to re-assess how 
they interact with each other and what their purpose is in being here. 
In some cases " fucking 3 year olds" may have been overly generous and 
polite!

> Part of having free speech, to the extent that we have it, and part of living in a multicultural world is not just respect for other's right to speak; but not getting your panties in a bunch and whining to authority when you don't like what others say. I am concerned that the recent use of power and threats of using power have caused some to bail and others to repeatedly call such rules as there are into question, that is testing the rules or asking if this or that is out of bounds. This is of course what "fucking 3 year olds" do.

Yes, I agree. But I would say that pretty much every person on this list 
is fully conversant with the idea of reasonable behaviour.
But it's not just the whining to authority or calling rules into 
question which characterises what's going on here but the way that 
members respond to each other without even thinking that what they're 
doing would be completely unacceptable in physical, rather than virtual, 
space. If someone walked into a bar where others behaved the way many 
here behave, they'd be horrified at how stupidly and immaturely a group 
of intelligent people are capable of behaving.
To paraphrase Pirsig, in order to make the world a better place first 
make yourself better.
Members need to think carefully and clearly about how they respond to 
others and why.
How many here act the way they do to massage their ego's and make 
themselves feel good (or think others will perceive them as being ever 
so clever) rather than contribute to gain a better understanding of 
Pirsigs work?
How many are here for some other purpose than the MoQ?
Our main purpose here should be to examine, criticise and expand the MoQ 
with intelligent and worthwhile debate. Not snipe and carp at each other 
because X doesn't agree with Y.
We've seen some potentially great debates go down the toilet because of 
infantile and immature behaviour.

> [Horse]
> This has nothing to do with thought police or censorship or any other
> nonsense that's raised to try and force me to run this list the way
> others want. It has to do with a list administrators right to perform
> his or her job as they see fit. And as I've said before if this is not
> acceptable to any member then they should leave.
>
> [Krimel]
> I was not referring to you as the thought police but to Ian and the others who have lately taken to calling for you to act. As Lao Tsu says,
>
> When the Master governs, the people
> are hardly aware that he exists.
> Next best is a leader who is loved.
> Next, one who is feared.
> The worst is one who is despised.
> If you don't trust the people,
> you make them untrustworthy.
> The Master doesn't talk, he acts.
> When his work is done,
> the people say, "Amazing:
> we did it, all by ourselves!"
>
> For most of the time I have been here you have been the "Master" we didn't know existed and who allowed us to think we were doing this all by ourselves. I think it is sad indeed that we are increasingly having to appeal to you as a leader, because that is a slippery slope.

Again Krim, I agree with you. I would much rather that I am, as the 
moderator, just a vague presence that members are barely aware of but 
rarely, if ever, hear from. However, recent circumstances have, I feel, 
forced me out of my hole and into a position that I dislike.
I would much rather be making contributions as just another member than 
as the moderator. But if I need to restore order and remind members that 
I can be heavy-handed then that's what I'll do.
So let's see how things go for a while and hopefully that I can stuff 
Horse the Moderator back into his box. Honestly, he's much happier there.

Cheers all


Horse

-- 

"Without music to decorate it, time is just a bunch of boring production deadlines or dates by which bills must be paid."
— Frank Zappa