[MD] freewill

Wed Apr 20 23:08:57 PDT 2011

Mark, 

And?  You've expressed an opinion, and?  I did not see a question, 
so?  Is there a specific point you'd like to discuss further or should 
I use try to apply a Rorschack method.  Maybe you think I should 
go bake cookies because my posts are so ridiculous?  I think it's 
about the journey, so maybe you think I should follow in your 
footsteps? 

Of course, I use the word 'I' all the time, it's a significant pronoun in 
the language I speak, and it represents a habit of thought.  

Marsha

On Apr 21, 2011, at 1:39 AM, 118 wrote:

> Hi Marsha,
> 
> I am still a little confused about what is being pointed to with the
> word pattern.  What is presented just doesn't make sense to me.  Most
> of our days are not patterned experience, as far as I can tell.  We
> pattern things by forming an image in our heads for what appears
> outside.  We certainly do not do that for over 99% of our experience.
> We certainly speak in patterns, but we are not talking all the time.
> And even when talking, that is only a small part of what is happening
> right then.  When one approaches each moment in a mindful manner it is
> easier to see how the mind is constantly jumping, second to second.
> Most of that is not patterned.  Perhaps I don't understand patterned.
> Perhaps I am tired of reading that word.  Perhaps I am an ornery old
> man.
> 
> Nonduality is not some intellectual achievement.  Most of our day is
> not dual, this is easy to see if one pays attention.  There is no
> subject or object when one is dancing.  What is the object of dancing?
> When we choose to talk about it, then it becomes dual because we must
> resort to agreed on methods.  If we care to share something we pattern
> it.  Otherwise we don't.  This as I have suggested is the societal
> level impinging on the personal level.  Naming is a tool used for
> communication, nothing else.  We don't have to know that a tree is
> called a tree, unless we want to share it.
> 
> Let's say that I am continually changing.  The fact that I use the
> pronoun "I" means that I believe I exist.  I believe you, Marsha, also
> use the word "I" sometimes.  We can say that we believe certain
> things, but it becomes obvious from the rhetoric used that we really
> don't.  Many who are enlightened such as some Christians or Buddhist
> refer to themselves as "this body".  I think that is kind of silly if
> you ask me (yeah, I know, nobody ever does).  The fact that I change
> and cannot be pinpointed does not mean that I don't exist.  If that
> were true then a tornado would not exist.  My daughter, who is in
> school in North Carolina, would say that's silly.  "Dad, are you
> talking about that weird stuff again?"
> 
> When you state that there is a fundamental unity, I think I know what
> you are pointing at.  However, fundamental unity has no reference, so
> it could be everything or nothing both at the same time.  We could say
> that water has fundamental unity.  But such a statement is comparing
> it to something that doesn't.  If everything is the same thing, then
> we could easily say that by that logic, everything is different too.
> Saying that everything has fundamental unity is good rhetoric, but is,
> in the end, a meaningless statement.
> 
> People are using "Not this, not that" in ways it was never intended to
> be used.  It has lost all meaning.  As if "not this, not that"
> actually presents an argument of something.  This is absurd, if I may
> say so (forgot to ask permission).  Like: "What is it?"  "Well, it IS
> not this, not that".  What is that all about?  IS it something or
> isn't it?  If it isn't then what is all the fuss about?  If it is
> something, well. by golly, then let's talk about it.  I guess it
> depends on what the meaning of "is" is.
> 
> Cheers as always,
> Mark
> 
> On Tue, Apr 19, 2011 at 10:58 PM, MarshaV <valkyr at att.net> wrote:
>> 
>> Hello John,
>> 
>> An unpatterned experience IS possible.  We do not share every experience,
>> so as you claim no such experience is possible because you've never
>> experienced it, I will continue to state that it is possible because I have
>> had such experiences.  I didn't experience it as chaos, but then the
>> experiences were not more than a few minutes.  I was present and felt
>> no panic.  Actually I felt elated.
>> 
>> I offered the wiki-quote only to validate that it is a documented experience.
>> I found it named in the Nonduality book, and as silly as it seems I was very
>> relieved to see it named.  What is it about naming that makes experience
>> more real?  Anyway, the wiki-quote was not the experience but some kind
>> explanation.  I will not even try to collaborate what Conze said.  I'd describe
>> it as seeing without something seen, without differentiation, without concepts.
>> 
>> I'm not sure where the comparison with "not this, not that" came from, but
>> for me 'not this, not that' is a reminder that below the patterns there is a
>> fundamental unity.
>> 
>> In your post to Mark, you wrote:
>> 
>> "One has to care to see a pattern, in order to see it.  You have to
>> try.  You have to use concepts such as order and symetry and repetition over
>> time, in order to call something a pattern, and once you see it that way,
>> you are attached to your interpretation."
>> 
>> One does not have to heed those pattern threads.  One can see without
>> the pattern (habit) recognition.
>> 
>> I am not going to say anymore because there really nothing to be said.
>> BUT, such experiences are possible, even for nobody special.
>> 
>> 
> [Mark]
> Ahhh, there is so much to be said, and so little time.
> 
> 
>> 
>> 
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