[MD] Straw Men and the Primacy of Trust

[khoohockaun at gmail.com]

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-----Original Message-----
From: david buchanan <dmbuchanan at hotmail.com>
Sender: moq_discuss-bounces at lists.moqtalk.orgDate: Mon, 1 Aug 2011 09:00:18 
To: <moq_discuss at moqtalk.org>
Reply-To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
Subject: Re: [MD] Straw Men and the Primacy of Trust


DMB said to Matt:
In my experience, accusations boil the blood only to the extent that they're true - so much so that wild, implausible accusations will only amuse the accused.


Ian said:
DMB sees offence and accusation as a source of mild amusement. As I said - water off a duck's back is the problem - ignorance of the issues, possibly, as you go on to suggest a kind of "macho" stance of the "real" American. Being offended is for wimps. ...And it's so left-brain, so rationally autistic, that I cannot understand why someone as intelligent as dmb - with his history addressing the mythos - doesn't see the immense irony in the MoQ context - this is not just "any" discussion list. This is the real "offence".



dmb says:
That would be a good example of what I mean. To be accused of taking a "macho" stance only amuses me. It's ridiculous. I've got soft hands, weigh in at a whopping 135 pounds and mom always worried about me because I was sooooo sensitive. As I see it, dealing with criticism properly doesn't demand masculinity so much as maturity. I think of the issue in terms of what grown-ups should be doing, as opposed to childish, irresponsible reactions - which are usually driven by concern for the ego rather than the substance of the issue. I remember when Krimel accused me of being too "romantic". He thought he really zinged me with that one but it only amused me. I wish that label fit better and so I was actually a little bit flattered by the accusation. Anyway, these things don't hurt because they're so inaccurate. What I'm saying is that the valid criticism is the one the really stings. When a criticism rings true to us, it is not at all like water off a duck's back. It's like a brand
 ing iron on your ass and when you hear that sizzle, it's time to take a good look at the criticism in question. That burning sensation is real information. 

Be honest, Ian. You are interested in negatively characterizing my "macho" stance for personal reasons. You do not like the way I criticize your contributions and you imagine that I could only do so if I were oblivious to the effect it has on you, only if the other guy's feelings mean nothing to me. Like an autistic person, you imagine that I must be blind to the social dimension. That's not the case at all. It's just that I think it's wrong to let those concerns run the show or dictate the terms and I refuse be coerced by emotional manipulation. You don't have to be a MOQer to see that as a form of corruption. We cannot give equal respect to everything that is posted just because it was posted by a person with feelings. This isn't group therapy or a popularity contest. If you are willing to join a group like this and you want to post your views, you gotta live with the consequences. Like I said, this is about maturity, not machismo. 

And come on, how bad could it really be? Let's keep things in perspective. This is only a discussion, not a war or a plague or famine. Words are the only weapons we have. What's the worst, most offensive thing I've ever said to you here? Accusations of taking wishy-washy or weasel wordy stances, of posting drivel? As I see it, the question is not whether you are offended by that or not. Of course you are. Who wouldn't be? But what if it's true? I mean, what if my criticism is valid? What if I'm not just picking on you and you really do have a habit of equivocating? Ever considered that as a real possibility? And don't you see how it is a corruption of the process to try to neutralize criticism by attacking the character of the critic? Even if I were an autistic macho romantic, how would saying so qualify as anything more than an ad hominem attack? 

  





 		 	   		  
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