[MD] Freewill

[MarshaV]

On Aug 3, 2011, at 7:19 AM, MarshaV wrote:

> 
> On Aug 3, 2011, at 6:54 AM, Ian Glendinning wrote:
> 
>> Marsha, dmb,
>> 
>> Common sense at both ends of that mail, so let's focus on that.
>> (The trading of accusatory rhetoric and dictionary definitions in
>> between I'll try to ignore.)
>> 
>> At the beginning - We are using the terms free-will and determinism.
>> 
>> And at the end - the Pirsig quote (again)
>> "To the extent that one's behavior is controlled by static patterns of
>> quality it is without choice.  But to the extent that one follows
>> Dynamic Quality, which is undefinable, one's behavior is free."
>> 
>> Well it's quite clear so far as it goes - but Pirsig himself is not
>> above qualifying himself with the odd weasel word is he ?
>> "To the extent that ..." he says about both halves of the story.
>> 
>> He is NOT saying we ARE controlled "deterministically" by static
>> patterns - if anything he is warning us to beware that we might be, if
>> we don't look out for them.
>> He is NOT saying we simply follow DQ - on some path determined by DQ -
>> he is still saying we have the freedom to choose what opportunities DQ
>> offers.
>> 
>> What Pirsig says is perfectly consistent with talking about free-will
>> and determinism in common sense established ways.
>> Again (almost) all I see in this thread is rhetorical disagreement for
>> the sake of wanting to have an argument.
>> Ian
>> 
> 
> Ian,
> 
> Stay with common sense, it that's what suits you.  I think the more 
> important issue, as Steve has suggested, is how to loosen the grip 
> of static quality to move in a more dynamic direction.  
> 
> 
> Marsha 

Ian,

By common sense, I mean common, conventional, static....  Stay with 
this point-of-view if you think it has worked, is working.  


Marsha 








> 
>> On Wed, Aug 3, 2011 at 11:18 AM, MarshaV <valkyr at att.net> wrote:
>>> 
>> 
>>>> Marsha asked:
>>>> Have you dropped the words 'free-will' and 'determinism'?
>>>> 
>>>> dmb answered:
>>>> No, I haven't dropped the terms.
>>> 
>>> Marsha:
>>> Okay.
>>> 
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