[MD] Moral Responsibility without free will

[MarshaV]

Greetings Tuukka,

Maybe my bad choice of words.  It was a question, not my opinion.  Maybe I should have written a better question.   

My point was that there seems nothing wrong with the law punishing & incarcerating an individual to protect society without free will entering the equations.   imho.   

 
Marsha 


On Aug 8, 2011, at 4:11 PM, Tuukka Virtaperko wrote:

> I think "holding someone responsible" is as much an illusion as free will itself. Free will is not a necessary justification for punishment of crime. We usually don't want crime, and punishment serves as deterrent of crime. Also, the current kind of justice system seems to be fairly accepted among commoners, in that it does not usually cause them to protest or otherwise lessen their trust in society. On the contrary, people find the justice system, generally, to increase their trust in society. The question on how to reduce crime while minimizing the damage our crime reduction efforts do to static and Dynamic Quality is completely valid without a concept of free will. A separate question is what kind of punishments the general public perceives as just (=useful, economic, not wasteful, increases safety, not cruel, etc.) and what kind of punishments feel unjust. The general public might be wrong, but it's able to change its mind, ecspecially if a better alternative is offered. Again, no free will required.
> 
> I just don't understand what the general fuss about free will is about. Not yet, at least. Has it ever been proposed as necessary for some other major question except theological questions and the question of punishing crime?
> 
> -Tuukka
> 
> 
> 
> 8.8.2011 17:57, MarshaV kirjoitti:
>> 
>> Is there a difference between the law holding someone responsible&  protecting citizens from further harm and a individual being "morally responsible"?  Just a question...
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Aug 8, 2011, at 10:36 AM, david buchanan wrote:
>> 
>>> Ian says he is "not getting what [Steve's] disagreement actually is [with dmb]":
>>> 
>>> So let's come back to your [Steve's] statement "moral (responsibility) and free will are not linked (as a logical necessity)" ... I am at a loss to understand how you are separating free-will from responsibility (at any level, common sense, science, MoQ or metaphysical in general).
>>> 
>>> 
>>> dmb says:
>>> 
>>> As I understand it, the nature of the disagreement is very simple. Steve says they are not linked and I say that his denial defies logic and overwhelming evidence to the contrary.
>>> 
>>> I tried, unsuccessfully, to get Steve to put every other factor aside and just focus on the sheer logic of it. I thought if you looked at that single brick with fresh eyes he'd see for himself what I mean. And so I asked just one question.
>>> 
>>> If our actions are determined, then how can we be held responsible for those actions?
>>> 
>>> I think that Steve cannot answer that question because it is logically impossible. NOBODY can answer that question because you cannot be held responsible for actions over which you have no control. Who says you aren't responsible unless you have a choice? Mr. Pirsig, Mr. Logic, Mr. dictionary and her highness, Princess encyclopedia, that's who.
>>> 
>>> At one point, if memory serves, Steve even went so far as to say that Pirsig doesn't talk about moral responsibility and otherwise suggested it plays no important role in the MOQ. As far as I can figure, this odd stance is a result of trying to make the MOQ accommodate Sam Harris's neurological determinism wherein persons are as morally culpable as tornadoes.
>>> 
>>> 
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