[MD] self: agent of action & thinker of thoughts

[MarshaV]

On Aug 17, 2011, at 11:25 AM, Arlo Bensinger wrote:

> [Marsha]
> Yes, but Ms. Albahari's investigation is whether the 'sense of self' does, in fact, reflect a real 'self'. A far more important investigation consider that RMP rejects an autonomous self.
> 
> [Arlo]
> You keep repeating this, Marsha, and I don't know why. I am not interested in the "real/illusion" dichotomy of existential existence. I am interested in how these patterns provide value within a MOQ. And within a MOQ there are no existents/illusions, there are only patterns of value.

Marsha:
I included the Ms. Albahari reference only because you mistakenly labeled Ian's comments as mine.  I added my comment to which Ian had posted his reply to supply context. 


> [Arlo]
> "Illusions" only appear in response to holding something as being existentially real. For example, the intellectual pattern of value called "free will" fosters the belief that the "self" is an existential existant. This is an illusion created by this pattern.

Okay.  The MoQ uses the term static quality, while Buddhism calls it conventional reality.  In both 'free will' is based is provisional.  

> [Arlo]
> Yes, Pirsig (and I) reject "autonomous selves", but this is just another way of saying "rejects S/O". Okay. Done. So the "self" is not an autonomous agent (as it is within S/O), but it IS a pattern of value.

Marsha:
Good for you.  I want to go deeper that an intellectual acknowledgement.  





Marsha