[MD] self: agent of action & thinker of thoughts

[MarshaV]

Mark,

Grrrrr to you.   

Was your presenting the little English translation of the Zen poem an exception to your rule because what you present is special?  Or was it a kind of 'do what I say and not what I do' moment?  


Marsha 






On Aug 21, 2011, at 2:13 PM, 118 wrote:

> BZZZZ
> 
> Is that worth one of your dangling fish that I jump through hoops for?
> 
> Mark
> 
> On Sun, Aug 21, 2011 at 10:29 AM, MarshaV <valkyr at att.net> wrote:
>> 
>> You bet it's worth a peanut!
>> 
>> 
>> How about:
>> 
>> There once was a bee that sat on a wall,
>> it said bzzzz, and that is all.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Marsha
>> 
>> 
>> On Aug 21, 2011, at 1:09 PM, 118 wrote:
>> 
>>> Marsha,
>>> 
>>> There was a young man who said tho'
>>> It seems that I know that I know
>>> What I would like to see
>>> Is the "I" that knows me
>>> When I know that I know that I know
>>> 
>>> Zen
>>> 
>>> That is worth at least a peanut
>>> 
>>> Mark
>>> 
>>> On Sun, Aug 21, 2011 at 10:05 AM, MarshaV <valkyr at att.net> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Mark,
>>>> 
>>>> Would you like another potato chip?
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Marsha
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> On Aug 21, 2011, at 12:03 PM, 118 wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> Hi Joe, Ham, Marsha, perhaps Ron, Arlo and whomever else is stuck in
>>>>> this two dimensional web,
>>>>> 
>>>>> Let's stick to logic for a second, for this is how philosophy works.
>>>>> Let's not get caught up in semantic misdirection and consider what we
>>>>> can logically create.
>>>>> 
>>>>> When Joe speaks of emotions, he gets caught up in a self-referential
>>>>> circle.  He defines emotions as indefinable.  Why are they
>>>>> indefinable?  Because they are emotions!  I am not sure how far this
>>>>> logic will take one.  Logic is structure, it is something we build on
>>>>> assumptions.  Such structures can stretch to the stars, or down to the
>>>>> atom.  We always begin in the middle of these.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Emotions, or as Ham prefers, pre-Rational sentiments, create
>>>>> definitions.  So we logically begin with "that which creates
>>>>> definitions".  Our assumption is therefore that there is something
>>>>> which results in definitions and start the logical process.  We can
>>>>> call this assumption anything we like.
>>>>> 
>>>>> From this assumption, we can logically work our way up into high level
>>>>> math, or down into mystical realities.  We can define such results as
>>>>> Illusions, Delusions, Fantasy, Creativity, Evolution, Devolution, etc.
>>>>> Let us assume that all these things are what we have.  So I will
>>>>> simplify all those words into one: Reality.  Therefore in the first
>>>>> instance, we have "that which creates Reality".  I am of course
>>>>> referring to our individual realities, or as Ham would state, our
>>>>> "sensibilities".
>>>>> 
>>>>> While I enjoy reading Ham's reflections on what he sees, I do not
>>>>> agree with his assumption that "man is the measure of all things".  I
>>>>> would say that "all things are the measure of man".  By this, I mean
>>>>> that man operates within a world that is provided him.  Man's
>>>>> measurements are simply a byproduct of existing measurements.  Man
>>>>> harnesses these things and uses them for his own good.  He cannot
>>>>> create them.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I am not sure who started this thread, but the nature of the subject
>>>>> title seems to point to Marsha.  The "agent" I would assume is similar
>>>>> to Ham's agent.  I did not have the time to read the quotes that
>>>>> Marsha provided since I am more interested in personal contributions,
>>>>> and I do not need to read another interpretation of the Diamond Sutra
>>>>> written in English.  I will say, however, that I disagree that the
>>>>> Self can create thoughts or action.  I therefore prefer Ham's
>>>>> "witness".  If somebody can demonstrate to me a logical or causal
>>>>> connection between the Self (our unique personal awareness), and
>>>>> thoughts (the action of the brain), I would most appreciate it.  For
>>>>> example, what is the mechanism by which the Self creates thoughts?
>>>>> Where does this First Action lie?
>>>>> 
>>>>> Best regards, I enjoy the posts.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Mark
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
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