[MD] self: agent of action & thinker of thoughts

Sun Aug 21 23:31:01 PDT 2011

Mark,

Nothing to forgive, of course.  The reference to a potato chip was 
my poor attempt at a zen reply, like pointing to a bamboo plant.  

Marsha 

On Aug 22, 2011, at 12:17 AM, 118 wrote:

> Hi Marsha,
> I am not sure what you mean.  I present things to entertain, not to be
> special.  Nothing that I say is new, I try to present it in a
> different way each time.  I presented the Zen poem to give you some
> awareness of "self" as it relates to Zen.  (I am not sure if it was a
> translation, it was something I heard Alan Watts say years ago).  In
> Zen terms, such a self is not a thinker of thoughts, why do you think
> you are supposed to "empty your head of thoughts to experience Zazen?
> To say that a self is a thinker of thoughts just does not make sense,
> unless you are subscribing to some kind of modern day misguided
> physical psychology nonsense.  It is like saying a that someone at a
> concert is actually producing the music.
> 
> Besides, I presented something that I personally find important, and
> all I get is some snide remark about potato chips.  What the hell is
> that all about?  Is it to be a cutesy little dumb blond?  If you did
> not understand it, at least keep your trite little nonsense to
> yourself.  If you do understand, then tell me where I have gone wrong.
> 
> You seem to dangle fish in front of everybody to make them jump
> through hoops.  What is that fish?  Why, it is others desire to be
> Right.  Not very often do you support what others are saying, but
> speak in platitudes that have no relation to the subject at hand.
> But, I know, this is just your way, I am just pulling your covers.
> 
> If you do not feel you do this, just ask yourself if you would post on
> a forum that you never got answers to.  I highly doubt it.  This is
> your form of ego entertainment, there is nothing that may be
> meaningful to you in it.  Bait and switch, present the football then
> pull it away.  Some like this game, but please spare the potato chip
> remarks for them.  It is just plain silly.
> 
> There, I have had my vent.  Please forgive me.
> 
> Cheers,
> Mark
> 
> On Sun, Aug 21, 2011 at 4:42 PM, MarshaV <valkyr at att.net> wrote:
>> 
>> Mark,
>> 
>> Grrrrr to you.
>> 
>> Was your presenting the little English translation of the Zen poem an exception to your rule because what you present is special?  Or was it a kind of 'do what I say and not what I do' moment?
>> 
>> 
>> Marsha
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Aug 21, 2011, at 2:13 PM, 118 wrote:
>> 
>>> BZZZZ
>>> 
>>> Is that worth one of your dangling fish that I jump through hoops for?
>>> 
>>> Mark
>>> 
>>> On Sun, Aug 21, 2011 at 10:29 AM, MarshaV <valkyr at att.net> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> You bet it's worth a peanut!
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> How about:
>>>> 
>>>> There once was a bee that sat on a wall,
>>>> it said bzzzz, and that is all.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Marsha
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> On Aug 21, 2011, at 1:09 PM, 118 wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> Marsha,
>>>>> 
>>>>> There was a young man who said tho'
>>>>> It seems that I know that I know
>>>>> What I would like to see
>>>>> Is the "I" that knows me
>>>>> When I know that I know that I know
>>>>> 
>>>>> Zen
>>>>> 
>>>>> That is worth at least a peanut
>>>>> 
>>>>> Mark
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Sun, Aug 21, 2011 at 10:05 AM, MarshaV <valkyr at att.net> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Mark,
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Would you like another potato chip?
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Marsha
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Aug 21, 2011, at 12:03 PM, 118 wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Hi Joe, Ham, Marsha, perhaps Ron, Arlo and whomever else is stuck in
>>>>>>> this two dimensional web,
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Let's stick to logic for a second, for this is how philosophy works.
>>>>>>> Let's not get caught up in semantic misdirection and consider what we
>>>>>>> can logically create.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> When Joe speaks of emotions, he gets caught up in a self-referential
>>>>>>> circle.  He defines emotions as indefinable.  Why are they
>>>>>>> indefinable?  Because they are emotions!  I am not sure how far this
>>>>>>> logic will take one.  Logic is structure, it is something we build on
>>>>>>> assumptions.  Such structures can stretch to the stars, or down to the
>>>>>>> atom.  We always begin in the middle of these.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Emotions, or as Ham prefers, pre-Rational sentiments, create
>>>>>>> definitions.  So we logically begin with "that which creates
>>>>>>> definitions".  Our assumption is therefore that there is something
>>>>>>> which results in definitions and start the logical process.  We can
>>>>>>> call this assumption anything we like.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> From this assumption, we can logically work our way up into high level
>>>>>>> math, or down into mystical realities.  We can define such results as
>>>>>>> Illusions, Delusions, Fantasy, Creativity, Evolution, Devolution, etc.
>>>>>>> Let us assume that all these things are what we have.  So I will
>>>>>>> simplify all those words into one: Reality.  Therefore in the first
>>>>>>> instance, we have "that which creates Reality".  I am of course
>>>>>>> referring to our individual realities, or as Ham would state, our
>>>>>>> "sensibilities".
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> While I enjoy reading Ham's reflections on what he sees, I do not
>>>>>>> agree with his assumption that "man is the measure of all things".  I
>>>>>>> would say that "all things are the measure of man".  By this, I mean
>>>>>>> that man operates within a world that is provided him.  Man's
>>>>>>> measurements are simply a byproduct of existing measurements.  Man
>>>>>>> harnesses these things and uses them for his own good.  He cannot
>>>>>>> create them.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I am not sure who started this thread, but the nature of the subject
>>>>>>> title seems to point to Marsha.  The "agent" I would assume is similar
>>>>>>> to Ham's agent.  I did not have the time to read the quotes that
>>>>>>> Marsha provided since I am more interested in personal contributions,
>>>>>>> and I do not need to read another interpretation of the Diamond Sutra
>>>>>>> written in English.  I will say, however, that I disagree that the
>>>>>>> Self can create thoughts or action.  I therefore prefer Ham's
>>>>>>> "witness".  If somebody can demonstrate to me a logical or causal
>>>>>>> connection between the Self (our unique personal awareness), and
>>>>>>> thoughts (the action of the brain), I would most appreciate it.  For
>>>>>>> example, what is the mechanism by which the Self creates thoughts?
>>>>>>> Where does this First Action lie?
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Best regards, I enjoy the posts.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Mark
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> ___
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