[MD] emptiness

[MarshaV]

Tuukka,

Unfortunately, I do not understand what you are presenting.  I do not have a familiarity with the terms as you are using them.  I understand we all might find different aspects of the MoQ important, and may approach that interest from different points-of-view.  Broadly, I tend to want to consider a pattern from a position of its opposite.  That allows for the widest range of possibilities for individual instances and the most dynamic point-of-view.  But that's just my opinion.  Bottomline, for me, is that Reality = Experience(patterned experience/unpatterned experience).   I think to categorize patterns into the four-level, evolutionary, hierarchical structure:  inorganic, biological, social and intellectual is brilliant, rational, modern, and suggests a way to bridge Western science with Eastern wisdom.  But this is only my own perspective.  

But that's enough of me repeating my point-of-view once again, to the point of ad nauseam some would say.  Hopefully as you continue to present your point-of-view it wll become bstter understood.  


Marsha





Sent from my iPad

On Dec 22, 2011, at 9:10 AM, Tuukka Virtaperko <mail at tuukkavirtaperko.net> wrote:

> Marsha,
> 
> I agree. I'd say Pirsig's patterns are descriptive abstractions of conventional-habitual experience.
> 
> I also think that conventional-habitual experience is the same as romantic quality.
> 
> But because Pirsig's patterns are an analogy of conventional-habitual experience, I think they do not include normative things such as formal logic and axiomatic mathematics. To be sure, such formal constructs may be derived from Pirsig's patterns, but once that has been done, they are inherently independent of experience.
> 
> In other words, I believe it's possible to construct a normative set of patterns which is an analogy of Pirsig's patterns, but not the same thing.
> 
> 1. The fundamental normative pattern is the /existence pattern/. It
> contains all existing entities, such as symbols and their basic
> relations.
> 2.  From the existence pattern emerges the /increment pattern/. This
> pattern includes all existing structures that can have duplicates or
> iterations. It contains variables and coefficients.
> 3.  From the increment pattern emerges the /interaction pattern/. That
> pattern includes all rules regarding what kind of increments are
> possible and what are not. It contains functions and topology.
> 4.  From the interaction pattern emerges the /control pattern/, which
> contains rules on what can be stated of interactions and what can
> not be stated. It contains things like axiomatization and completeness.
> 
> 
> -Tuukka
> 
> 
> 
> 22.12.2011 13:29, MarshaV kirjoitti:
>> Hi Mark,
>> 
>> I see patterns, of which words and definitions are an aspect, to all be analogy for conventional-habitual experience.
>> 
>> 
>> Marsha
>> 
>> 
>> Sent from my iPad
>> 
>> On Dec 21, 2011, at 11:40 PM, 118<ununoctiums at gmail.com>  wrote:
>> 
>>> Hi Marsha,
>>> OK I see how you are using analogy.  I would use the word symbolism.  There, there was no complaint there, I must be improving my attitude.  Thanks for pointing it out.
>>> 
>>> Sent laboriously from an iPhone,
>>> Mark
>>> 
>>> On Dec 20, 2011, at 11:05 PM, MarshaV<valkyr at att.net>  wrote:
>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> On Dec 21, 2011, at 1:19 AM, 118<ununoctiums at gmail.com>  wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> Hi Marsha,
>>>>> I am not griping, I am just talking.  Settle down, I am not out to get
>>>>> you.  My only point was that non-duality is a word which we give the
>>>>> idea that there is no "other".
>>>> And I don't think you're out to get me, you just tend towards complaint.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> An analogy is when we represent something with a similar thing.
>>>>> Something that is hard to describe is presented as something that is
>>>>> similar.
>>>> 
>>>> I used 'nonduality' as similar to a type of experience.  But explanation, too, with its use of signs and symbols (words) is the use of analogies all the way down.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
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