[MD] US democracy at work?

[Horse]

Hi All

We have a similar problem in the UK to the ones mentioned here, in that 
the cost of the public sector pensions and benefits have been increasing 
enormously over the last few years.
I generally tend to have sympathy with those that are receiving these 
benefits as that was part of the package that was agreed when contracts 
were signed or agreed to. It's not their problem if, 40 years or so down 
the line, the cupboards are bare.

As a quick aside, I have no idea how it works on your side of the pond 
but over here everyone pays into a general fund and is guaranteed a 
state pension at a certain age - normally 65 - upon retiring. It's not 
that good so the majority opt for an additional pension into which they 
pay so much and the company they work for pays so much - that's pretty 
standard for most companies. It's not a legal requirement but it is 
standard practice and part of the majority of remunerative packages both 
public and private.
In the case of government workers you have a similar situation - workers 
pay amount X every month and the employer (i.e. government, local or 
national) pays amount Y every month and when you hit 65 you get various 
benefits.
One big problem is that the retiring age of 65 is a bit out of date - by 
about 100 years or so as around 100 years ago 66 was the average age 
that most folk (mainly men) attained before they popped their clogs and 
got buried. So you retired at 65, got your stuff in order and then 
dropped dead - more or less. And had a year or so, on average on the 
agreed benefit in order to do this. Many people now live a lot longer 
than that so the amount needed to pay all pensions has increased 
enormously over the last 30 - 40 years or so. One of the problems of 
having a decent state health system I suppose!

So government workers and government contracted to certain agreed 
conditions and rates of pay. The workers fulfilled their side of the 
bargain so now they expect the government to fulfill theirs. Entirely 
reasonable really - if you enter into a contract to fix someone's 
motorcycle or build something or whatever, and you do your job then 
you're going to be pretty pissed off if the other side tries to change 
the rules and not pay up. That's what contracts are about. If I was one 
of these folk I would expect my employer to fulfill their side of the 
bargain - it's not my problem if they're a bit short of cash. We had an 
agreement and it should be honoured.
It may be time for government to wake up and smell the coffee and 
realise that they need to change the conditions for any new contracts 
but any existing contracts should be honoured - as with any contract 
between 2 parties where one side has carried out their duties as 
requested. It's difficult for government to do this without raising 
taxes or cutting services but a deal is a deal - whoever makes it.
I can't see why there should be a problem with unions and collective 
bargaining or whatever - there should be no need for it if each side 
acts honourably and reasonably.

Perhaps those that are at the root of the problem, with respect to the 
current financial problems, need to be educated to play their part in 
the social structure within which they operate. You know, that old 
fashioned principle of paying your way. Just a thought.

Horse


On 27/02/2011 17:22, Dan Glover wrote:
> Hi Andre and all,
>
> I've been following the developments in Wisconsin with great interest.
> I live in Illinois, which like Wisconsin is also facing a growing
> budget deficit due mainly to entitlements. In short, we're going broke
> paying public employees as much or more in retirement than they made
> during their working days. Not only that, but their health care is
> provided as well.
>
> As a regular working stiff, no one pays for my pension or my health
> care. I am expected to provide that myself. And I don't have a problem
> with that. What I do have a problem with however is my property taxes
> going up year after year in order to make sure public employees enjoy
> benefits that I will never enjoy.
>
> The (newly elected) governor of Wisconsin is attempting to balance the
> budget there by doing away with these entitlements. In order to
> acheive this, it is (deemed) necessary to strip the public unions of
> their bargaining power, otherwise it is all just going to happen
> again. The key word here is "public" which denotes paid by regular
> working joes and janes. In order to block the passage of the bills
> that the new governor is proposing, the minority Republicans are
> filibustering and hiding out.
>
> The use of filibuster goes back over a century here. From Wikipedia:
>
> "The term "filibuster" in its legislative sense was first used in
> 1851. It was probably derived from the Dutch vrijbuiter, meaning free
> outsider (also entered English as "freebooter"), which became in
> Spanish filibustero, and in French flibustier. This term was applied
> in the mid-19th century to American adventurers who sought to
> overthrow governments in Central and South America. Later the term was
> extended to legislators who used their right to talk as a means of
> pirating or hijacking debate.[2]"
>
> I am not sure what message the Europeans get from the workings of
> democracy here... and in addition I come from the Chicago area, which
> is notoriously corrupt when it comes to politics. So my own viewpoints
> may be skewed somewhat when it comes to fair play. But... something
> has to be done, otherwise more that a few states are facing
> bankruptcy. In fact, there are already studies being done on how such
> a fiasco will affect the economies of those states. Arkansas is a
> prime example. Decades after facing bankruptcy the state is still
> recovering.
>
> To answer your questions, yes, this is the freedom we fight for. It
> might not be perfect, but it works. And I for one much prefer it to a
> dictatorship no matter how magnanimous it may be.
>
> Thank you for reading,
>
> Dan
>
>
>
> On Sun, Feb 27, 2011 at 5:07 AM, Andre Broersen<andrebroersen at gmail.com>  wrote:
>> Hello MOQ'ers!
>>
>> I received this today from an American friend. I was just stunned to see the
>> happenings. Perhaps those of you living in the US are used to these sorts of
>> practices?
>>
>> Is this the type of thing people are waiting for/dying for in Iraq,
>> Afghanistan and now various parts of the Middle East? Of course I do not
>> know the full story behind this particular 'incident' but if this is the way
>> a high quality intellectual pattern of value is treated by powerful sections
>> of 'the most freedom loving nation on Earth' I think I'll opt for a high
>> quality magnanimous dictatorship.
>>
>> Here's the link:
>> The Wisconsin Governor's concept of bi-partisanship. With 15 more Dems
>> waiting to speak the vote was called and closed within seconds. Somehow this
>> was coordinated, with all the Republicans in their seats waiting for the
>> signal. Most of the Dems didn't even realise what was happening. I'd expect
>> this from 'democracy' in Zimbabwe or Afghanistan, but hardly in America.
>> Shame indeed! A shame on all of us.
>>
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZALlaMA9b0
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Andre
>>
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