[MD] Changes in 2011

[rapsncows at fastmail.fm]

Ian, (Marsha, Horse, John, dmb, Mark, All),

Ian, thanks for addressing me on this (I've moved threads)!  I'm not
sure what exactly to make of it, your addressing this, or the lack from
others, or Marsha's continued absence...  But I give you a great deal of
credit anyway.  Thanks!  I also just read your comment to John, which I
import here:

"(My take is simply that some people prefer disagreement to progress,
and Horse has taken up the progress challenge, which is fine with me.)"

and then here, to me, you said:

"[Ian] Misfits have much value, but Horse is indeed asking the "where is
this
> leading ?" question. One pattern of quality is always sacrificed for
> another, and it sometimes takes courage to do the sacrificing. I'm for
> progress."

The over-riding question: what progress?
The second question: and how is Marsha the Dam preventing it?

But, I want to ... get behind these.

Ian, I sympathize with your - I'll say 'unpatterned' - desire for
'progress' (read 'unspecified' if this sounds offensive or intentionally
provocative, or whatever else - in any way).  But, ultimately, this
progress is into the UNKNOWN, so it seems exceedingly foolish to
sacrifice tools or people unless it is unavoidable - for whatever
reason.  Of course we think we can say a lot about this UNKNOWN, so
maybe it is more like the UNknown...  Ian, there is a reason I fit in
amongst the misfits, and not amongst the 'fits'!  I think that the
'fits' are missing more than they can recognize in this endeavor (this
endeavor being Quality-life --- rather, Moral-life).  And, being
ignorant of this aspect, and I might even say that I suspect that they
are repulsed by it: the 'faith-y' part; the love-y part; the part for
which the intellect is to aim, but which AIM seems to transcend the
intellect...  Anyway, I think that this is the qUALUITY I find, and
which I find so endearing, amongst the misfits, but which is atrophied
to a great extent amongst the 'fits'.  Marsha was pretty top notch in
this (I say 'was', but I don't know, perhaps she will be back)!  If
Marsha does not return, I think you've lost a great deal of the Quality
that I found in this forum.

Ian, I would give you my thoughts of you if I could.  I'm sorry, I
haven't followed you very closely.  I do know that I have a vague
recollection of some impressive comments from you here and there.  So,
as contrast, I guess I have to look to dmb.  I haven't interacted with
him, and I haven't followed his posts too closely either, but he has
given a lot, so I have some opinion.  Further, since there is so much
support of him on the side of the 'fits', and he seems to relish this
central role, perhaps it is fitting.  I have spent way less time and
effort in the details of Pirsig's metaphysics, still, I think I can make
a meaningful evaluation.  I have given this, at least twice, before. 
dmb seems to deserve the accolades and recognition he gets.  From the
rational part of the intellectual level, I think his grasp of the MoQ
seems to put him in the position of RMP in absentia.  Of course I
haven't gotten into it with him, so perhaps this is premature.  Even so,
what progress?  What is the AIM?  Am I such a fool to think that it is
frustration over the aimlessness inherent in a purely rational,
intellectual level, comprehension, which has led to this scapegoating of
Marsha?  How can such a pleasant lady be holding back your progress? 
Ignore her and go about your business.

Not too long ago there was a bit of an exchange about predictions of
where RMP's work would find its life in the future.  I think Platt
predicted art departments.  I think Matt predicted ...  dang, I don't
want to commit myself to my memory at the moment, ...  anyway, when I
first came here, I jumped right in, I don't remember how well I
expressed it then, but, my position is that RMP, if he is to be
remembered, will be remembered it light of religion/theology.  Quality =
Morality.  Again, I think that RMP was rejected because his efforts were
to convert the heathen.  In ZAMM he admits to messianic thoughts when he
was in the heart of his ... story.  In 'Lila' he makes this equality,
Quality = Morality, explicit.  I continue to see his efforts, and his
metaphysics, as an attempt to eliminate the unnecessary and irrational
aspects of ossified religions, but to introduce this bare-religion, and
not just to introduce it, but to make it the foundation, of social and
intellectual life.

RMP, as I read him, basically said, unless Morality is the root of
life...
progress...  well, progress not centered on Morality is not progress he
was going to endorse.

So, what progress?  And how was Marsha the problem?

$$$

I was not aware that Bo's leaving was so recent.  Horse gave a link to
something about mid August, and I went back to have a look.  I have been
looking over the progression of the Forum since then, not in too great a
detail though.  So, I have a bit of an understanding of what was going
on leading up to my joining (but I haven't yet looked into Bo's
position).

There is one thing that I think is a fine example of the difference in
perspective.  John had shared some stuff about his personal life: a
battle about his home/property, separating with Lu, and something for
which
I'm not sure I found sufficient detail - about the loss of a daughter
(John, I didn't know, I don't know what to say... thanks for sharing). 
Lots of people reached out in different ways, and I don't think that I
followed it closely enough to really gauge how John took it all, but I
do think that I understand him right when he scoffed at the idea of
being ashamed, and when he willingly accepted the moniker 'white trash'.
 Recently John has also said, one man's garbage is another's...  Anyway,
it will come as little surprise that my suggestion here is that John was
exhibiting a highly developed moral sense, and that such behavior is
exemplary of someone with an AIM, and someone who knows how to go about
progressing towards his AIM.

dmb, in this line I think I can give an example of your behavior that
might suggest that you are not too too far from agreeing with me.  In
this conversation you were having with Matt and Steve recently, I think
to Steve, you had expressed some 'frustration' (in an aside), and he
replied with something like, "what is the point of expressing that." 
You defended yourself. ---  But, on the other end!  Whoa.  This touchy
feely, lovey dovey, emotive, superficially a-rational, part of your
selves finds its way out.  Marsha takes heat for a comment like, "I miss
Bo."; such a comment is unacceptable.  But all the emotive releases
against her, all the name calling, and all the juvenile bullying, are
fine; they are manly, eh?  They don't disturb the conversation?  They
don't illicit comments from the 'fits', 'what is the point..."

I don't know what the interpretation of the MoQ that comes from the
'pirsigians' (as Ham calls you) has to say about the method of
communication I might call sentiment.  John and I, at least, agree that
this is an intellectual level endeavor (and we have used the word
'heart' before).  Works of art, music, communicate via sentiment (I am
kind of an idiot here so I don't mean to bound it up), and both logic
and sentiment are important aspects in the faithful decision process. 
This faithful decision process, in short, is the one used in choosing
(and finding first) AIMS.  And, to be sure, this is mainly
in-the-moment, small, every-day decisions.  Decisions with way less
consequence than the trouncing of Marsha from this forum.

$$$

Now, about the forum.  I have been here but a short time, but this may
mean that my perspective is particularly valuable in this case, since I
don't have the baggage of the past impinging on my e-valuation (hahaha,
funny term, since you are all just e-people to me).  But, given that
'progress' doesn't seem to happen, this forum has been very pleasant
otherwise (and this lack of progress seems to me ubiquitous in
contemporary life).  It has, seemingly naturally, worked itself in to a
manageable size; size is not the problem that has caused Marsha to be
jettisoned.  There is a diversity of perspective.  People are
self-controlled - more or less.  Etc. And etc.

Ian, Horse, I just don't see any reason why any action needed to be
taken against Marsha.  Even if you disagree with my belief that Marsha
is
a definite benefit to the forum, I don't see how you can think that she
needs to be shut up in order for the forum to work well for you.  I
don't see how you think progress will be easier for you if she isn't
butting in.  You know that people can ignore her if they want; you also
know that they do not want!  People engage Marsha, benefit from her
highly rational and intellectual defense, and then, once they have,
again, concluded that they are happier with the leap of faith they have
made, and that they are not converted to Marshaism, they utter some
names, make fun of her defense, which they benefited from a good deal,
and they account everything she gave them, which she gave for free, as
naught.  IF she really offered them naught, and if it were really years
of repetition, people would ignore her!  They don't!!!  Is it pure
altruism that motivates them to keep engaging her?  Then let them give
up converting her.  Or let them learn to live with the fact that they
have not succeeded.  Still, why can't she be tolerated amongst those who
want to engage her?  IS she a threat?  I don't get it.  The forum is
working well.  I don't see a problem that needs fixing or intervention. 
If anything, I think that Marsha
shows that the direction of progress is in a direction that the
'pirsigians' do not want it to be.  progress is to be had, not so much
in the realm where dmb is very well qualified - the rational - but in
the repugnant realm of faithe, love, patience, ... Morality.  Progress
is
to be had in the area of real human social interaction, where sentiment
is a valuable tool of communication, and where an autistic (Mark, by the
way, I ran across another post of yours regarding autism, and I just
want to acknowledge that your idea about autism being an attempt at
evolution is really interesting; I'm taking it under advisement) child
might even be as well equipped as RMP himself.  To be sure, RMP did
admit that he struggled with social interaction.  To be sure, RMP did
admit that the intellectual endeavor of playing with metaphysics was
'degenerate'.

Again, when I came here I had the idea that RMP put together his
metaphysics to show such intellectual degenerates that they were stuck
in a degenerate lifestyle.  I suggested that his main AIM was to get
people to find their way out, rather than to get them further in.  I am
becoming more and more firm in that reading.  Metaphysics is a
degenerate behavior; though, to be sure, degeneracy is okay, morally, at
least at times.  The point of the MoQ is to come to (Dynamic) Morality. 
Specifically, it is to bring the rational inteligensia back down to
earth.

Anyway, it seems the 'fits' are missing the biggest point of all.  And
the jettisoning of Marsha is proof.

Anyway, Ian, I think you are confused about 'progress'.  But I give you
a good deal of credit for engaging me here.

I don't see how Marsha has hampered anyone's progress one whit (quite
the contrary in fact).  I think she has become a scapegoat for people's
frustration though.  progress is not forthcoming for a very real reason,
and it has nothing to do with the fact that Marsha says "I miss Bo" from
time to time.  (Or the fact that she remains unconvinced that the
intellectual level is not just a subject-object level, or the fact that
she rests ultimately upon a position which I might paraphrase as "I am
not".)

Anyway, all the best,

and, again, Horse, thanks - sincerely!  IT is your forum and I'm glad to
be afforded the privilege of being here.  I just think that you have
made a decision that works against you.  You have provided this forum to
us, and now you have lessened the Quality.

Tim


On Mon, 3 Jan 2011 10:45:32 +0000, "Ian Glendinning"
<ian.glendinning at gmail.com> said:
> Tim, you said in reply to Horse
> "I get frustrated with xxxx too sometimes, but frustration is just
> frustration, right?  The point is the Quality, right?  If you start
> sacrificing quality to ease mere frustration, where is that gonna
> lead? Which forum do you want?"
> 
> As a matter of principle Tim, you are so right, but you have to
> appreciate (you do in fact) that some people have been in that state
> for many many years, and some have even been stoking their mutual
> positions (pattern) for almost as many years.
> 
> Misfits have much value, but Horse is indeed asking the "where is this
> leading ?" question. One pattern of quality is always sacrificed for
> another, and it sometimes takes courage to do the sacrificing. I'm for
> progress.
> Ian
> 
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