[MD] Issues with Self

[Ian Glendinning]

Arlo,
Depersonalized / Inserted
Ian

On Tue, Jan 4, 2011 at 3:22 PM, Arlo Bensinger <ajb102 at psu.edu> wrote:
> [Ian]
> To Arlo, Do you not see "self" as an issue "behind things" here ?
>
> [Arlo]
> I think the self is a pragmatic construction, a useful illusion. But I think
> such value patterns are as real as inorganic or biological patterns.
>
> [Ian]
> I ask because your points .... clearly we all find handles pragmatically
> useful ...
>
> [Arlo]
> Useful, yes. But also as "real" as rocks, birds and gravity.

[IG] Yes, conventionally, but equally as "illusory" as the objects we
call rocks, birds and gravity.

>
> [Ian]
> ... clearly objectifying the (named) individual is a pitfall the MoQ intends
> us to avoid
>
> [Arlo]
> Objectifying? There is a reason the "self" perpetuates continuity, a reason
> why you sign all your posts "Ian", is that "objectifying"?

[IG] Of course, as I said we all do it. The point is to do it in the
knowledge that you are doing it, and not attach attributes to the
object that are more to do with interactions and experiences involving
the dynamic collection of patterns rather than the object. (Especially
if the object is complex higher order collection of social and
intellectual patterns.)

> Clearly some insist on creating and maintaining a stable "self" here,
> indeed were quite bothered a while back when some felt that some "posters"
> may be avatars for the same biological "person".

[IG] Me too. It's a question of how many levels of indirection one's
trust can cope with. We all know a handle is a label for (see above)
... but if there is a deliberately falsified identity in there too,
that breaks up the continuity, it is doubly difficult to piece
together the dynamic history of experienced patterns that the name is
attached to. We need sq (some stability) as well as DQ or the whole
complex of patterns (MD) is unstable.

>
> If one wants to talk about "MOQ-value" and the self, then the patterns of
> continuity and persistence he or she exhibits and demands should be addressed as
> well. Simply saying "no self" means nothing if one doesn't understand this.

[IG] Understood. It is always possible to say or do more, to elaborate, yes.

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