[MD] Changes in 2011

[rapsncows at fastmail.fm]

dmb, (John, Marsha, Platt),

thanks for your reply.  And thanks for your blunt, clear, direct,
to-the-point assessments.

comments below, jumbled around a bit:

On Wed, 5 Jan 2011 13:48:09 -0700, "david buchanan"
<dmbuchanan at hotmail.com> said:

[dmb]
> These are not simply alternative points of view. These positions have
> been maintained in the face of evidence that would and should convince
> any reasonable person. As I see it, these people have demonstrably proven
> that they are not reasonable.

[Tim]
If I can speak casually for just a sec, I think you will find that you
and I are pretty close vis-a-vis 'reasonable'.  If I can speak with
total formality for a sec: what is 'reasonable'?  In between, if we lean
towards one extreme, you will be hard pressed to find one reasonable
person out of... how many would you say?  One out of every million?  I
don't know.  Toward the other end, there may be a whole bunch of
counter-intuitive reasonableness.

Now, you may think this childish, worthless, wafty gibberish.  Let me
try to solidify it.  I think the world is in a exceedingly sad state. 
This is the real drag in my mind.  It is hard for me to levy *much*
blame on anyone for their behavior and choices under such circumstances.
 In sum it amounts to something very blame-worthy, so we do all have
some blame, but holding people to 'reasonableness' seems unreasonable in
such unreasonable times.  Here I am speaking very generally, not
thinking about this forum or people here in particular.  This is a
chicken or the egg type situation though, and both are unreasonable, and
it would be real sad if we succumbed to the ultimate unreasonableness. 
So my wonder is, how is any reasonableness to be brought into this sad
state of affairs?  Rational, intellectual level stuff doesn't seem to
work.  I might say that reasonableness is unreasonable.  So this is why
I turn to love, and faithe - in short, dynamic tools.

[dmb]
> As I see it, these people have demonstrably proven
> that they are not reasonable. And that means there is no way to conduct a
> meaningful conversation with them. 

[Tim]
well, I don't want to get sidetracked at the moment so I will let the
definitions of 'reasonable' and 'meaningful' float a bit.  But, I must
insist that even if the conversation cannot be meaningful, it can be
valuable, it can be purposeful, it can be effective, and it can even be
of high intellectual quality.  You may have a great gift, and a highly
developed talent for, reasonableness, dmb.  I mean this sincerely.  But
not everybody brings the same skills to the table.  IF dmb level
reasonableness is a pre-requisite, from everyone, I think we are fucked.
 Don't you?

Further, and importantly, I am all but certain that you were not always
so reasonable.  You were once a kid.  I bet if we could watch a full
length movie of you life we could find some time in the past when you
*proved*, according to your own contemporary standards, that you
yourself was not reasonable.  So, patience is my suggestion.  Not that
you have any obligation to put yourself through the frustrating ringer
with anyone ad nauseum, but, patience - and tolerance, and hope, and
love, etc.

[dmb]
> Why would such a person be interested
> in joining a discussion group in first place? I'd guess they're motivated
> by loneliness or something. It certainly doesn't appear to motivated by
> any real interest in what Pirsig says.

[Tim]
why would such a person be interested in joining...?  Well, first, let
me just suggest that such a person might have 'loved' RMP's books, and,
though they didn't buy him hook line and sinker, imagine that such guy
is the kind of guy they would like to have at their dinner table.  And,
in this light, they might think that joining a forum with other people
who also have this strong love would be one of the higher quality ways
to spend some time.

Now, about 'loneliness', dmb, I suggest you don't take you current
situation for granted!  You are quite fortunate!  I don't know your
situation actually, but, I think you are at a university.  Is this
right?  Anyway, that is a real wonderful social environment!  Lots of
people.  Lots of people your age, with your interests, etc. and etc. 
And lots of diversity.  Not everybody is so fortunate.  Loneliness can
be a bitch.  I don't know if anyone is here for loneliness, but if so,
it is a real mean thing to dump on them for that!

[dmb]
>  You wanna talk about the lack of humility? Platt and Marsha
>   think they know better than anyone and it doesn't matter if you're the
>   original author or if you've produced a Ph.D thesis or written a book
>   on the topic.

[Tim]
Wonderful: I would suggest humility to anyone who 'think[s] they know'. 
I'll shut up about this in a second.  But one, I know that I need to
swallow this pill as often as possible.  And two, I think that whatever
success I have had to date had been largely based on humility.  So,
three, this was not a barb so much to irritate you, but more a reminder
to (all of us, me, you, reader, to) consider what might be the most
useful tool we have in our toolkit.  (When I was young one of the best
pieces of advice I got, and I think it stuck pretty well, 'you can never
say thank you too much'.  In this vein, I might say that you can never
implement humility too much.  But, of course, there is the caveat that
false humility is not humility.)

[dmb]
> Intellectual competence means nothing. To them,

[Tim]
I hope this snip is okay.  I am just suggesting...  well, first, Marsha
would caution that is YOU, and that you don't have a TRUE reading of
them.  But, I am suggesting that ...  well, actually, I wonder what I am
suggesting here!  I'm gonna say something anyway though.  I am
suggesting that it might be, at times - and it will be really hard, if
not impossible, to know if it is - but it might be that your ability is
too far and above someone else's (at least at that moment) to lead them
through your front door.  A more full, robust approach might be needed. 
Again, this is very general, not directed towards anyone here
specifically.  But, dmb, I am thinking about a very general audience. 
How would you go about convincing a high-school drop-out that Quality is
important?  And how would you help such a person to see Quality clearly?
 I contend that none of us, not you, not me, not John, Platt, and
Marsha, and not RMP himself, is *above* these.  If we are more capable
vis-a-vis 'reasonable', then we are more burdened vis-a-vis Morality.

So, back to the top:

> 
> dmb said:
> ...In a place like this, ignoring contrary evidence and evading questions
> is a very serious problem.

[Tim]
hmmm... it is frustrating, no doubt!  The frustration might even be so
much as to be good cause to terminate certain conversations (I mean this
in the sense that one person will decide "I don't want to talk to you").
 But I think that there is a strong argument, perfectly congruent with
the MoM, that using the clause "In a place like this" is to see this
place as a place/object with SOM eyes.  To see this place with MoM eyes,
on the other hand, would be to see it as a nice little forum where we
can focus ourselves, but which is not some disconnected place where the
dynamic morality of living humans can be suppressed for the benefit of
promoting philosophical discussion or reasonableness.  It is a place
where real, living, moral people come with the hopes of having, amidst
the real social environment, some solid, reasonable, philosophical
discussion worked into the mix - and in such a way that we don't really
hope in a lot of other environments.

I can't ignore 'serious problem'; there may be a whole can of worms
there.  What about 'disturbing challenge'?

> [dmb] It's a violation of decency and fair-play.
> It's not honest. That kind of behavior is the mark of very low
> intellectual quality.

[Tim]
let me just reiterate that everyone is a jackass.  The best that
humanity has had to offer through history, I'm all but certain, was a
jackass.  So it is no surprise to find intellectual jackassery here. 
However, if you take the wide view of the problem (and if in fact you do
see it as a 'problem' that humans might be leading up to a self-imposed
mass die off), the intellectual quality here is quite high.  John and
Marsha for sure.  And even Platt, which whom I had one real tiny
exchange, as I recall, and who has hardly posted much since I've been
here, I think I can say that he is highly capable intellectually. 
Anway, dmb, I said earlier that if we need eveyone to be at your level,
we are fucked.  I say here, if we need everybody to be at the
intellectual level that I have witnessed in the MoM, we are fucked.

> [dmb] And yet that's exactly what the so-called "misfits"
> do, some of them have been ignoring and evading for many years now. The
> problem seems to be plain, old-fashioned incompetence, not that they have
> a "different" point of view.

[Tim]
I don't know anything about the many years, and I will state, 'dang, how
can anybody continue to stay here for so long!?'  But, from my two
months, I have seen, amongst ... well, we have both been able to talk
about John and Marsha... and if I include myself... people trying to
learn stuff, people trying to share stuff, people trying to communicate
stuff, and, again, people trying to learn stuff.  It's a tough slog.  We
are in the rareified mountain air here.  Dumping ones perspective into
another's mind is no easy feat!  But if it (figuring out and discussing
the MoM) doesn't work here, in Horse's nice little forum, is there much
reason to hold hope that it will work anywhere else?  maybe.  But, for
me, and maybe some others here too, this is the only place that I can be
a part of (readily), where I can even consider it seriously. 

> [dmb] These misfits don't fit into a philosophical
> discussion group

[Tim]
dmb, let me say again, if John and Marsha do not fit in, we are either
fucked, or philosophical discussion is a trivial novelty.

> [dmb] because such a discussion can not function without
> answering questions, saying what you mean and honestly facing up to the
> relevant evidence.

[Tim]
let me poke the bear one more time.  An engine without oil can run okay
for a bit (well enough that someone who leaves maintenance to and expert
might not notice any problem), until the thing ceases and must be
chucked wholesale.  This is what RMP did with SOM.  Until then, and in
the minds of the SOM-ists, everything was functioning hunky dory.

> [dmb] A conversation just can't work without these basic
> standards of decency.

[Tim]
now, yes, I think more decency is called for.  From everyone I've
witnessed, I've seen indecency.  I'm sure the vice versa is true as
well.  But, this suggests humility.  A good deal of what I have seen as
indecency might very well have been the fault of my seeing.  However, I
don't doubt that we all fall short of decency - and that this is a
serious problem.


> [dmb] ..As I see it, the participants who conduct
> themselves this way, year after year, really don't belong in a place like
> this regardless of the topic discussed.

[Tim]
well, the argument can be made.  I agree.  I don't know how I might feel
if I had been here for a long time.  But, I am pointing out that such
long-term experience causes a myopia of a different sort than the one I
have in my short-term experience.  I don't know about you precisely, but
just sort of generally, since you are 'there', you might forget, and
undervalue, what all went into your getting there.  Even if you think
that there are some who are not there, and who will never get there,
they can still play a significant role in other people's getting there! 
And, on top of that, there resistance to getting 'there', might show you
that you don't want to be 'there' in the end!!!

Anyway, the world is a craphole; so I know I'm not there.

>[dmb] That kind of behavior would spoil
> ANY kind of philosophical discussion and if they ignored evidence
>   and refused to answer questions in a court of law they'd be cited for
>   contempt or laughed out of the courtroom.

[Tim]
I guess if I were a clown I might laugh at the circus-goer too.

> [dmb] I mean, in some contexts it
>   is literally against the law to do what they do here every day of the
>   week. As I see it, Horse's contention is that this behavior interferes
>   with the main purpose of this forum and I don't see how anyone can
>   doubt that.

[Tim]
if Horse *really* says that I won't doubt it!  However, I have enjoyed
this Forum.  If Horse would rather take the forum in another direction,
I am 100% behind his right to do so; it is just that, from my
perspective, I don't see that it would be an improvement.  He has been
hosting this a long time, as I gather, and there are a lot of people who
have been here a long time, you might be right.  But I have real serious
doubts; I have offered them, for what they are worth.  The man at the
top of the ladder cuts off the bottom of the ladder at his own peril.

> [dmb] On some days there is nothing but noise and interference so
>   that decent conversation is completely shut out.

[Tim]
I have said it before.  In my time here, from what I have seen, never
has there been noise that would have shut out some decent conversation I
might have had.  What has shut out such conversation, on my part, is the
fact that I am tapped of anything very decent to say.  On the other
hand, out of the noise come some little nuggets of inspiration that keep
me interested.  BUt again, this is where experience *might* (I can't
know) shed light!

> [dmb] It's just about
>   dealing with childish bullshit that should never exist in the first
>   place. What a drag.

[Tim]
one can make a real strong argument that philosophical discussion in
itself is childish bullshit.  BUt I think that childish bullshit should
exist...

> 
> Tim replied:
>  haha. I, for one, am a fan of children.  Therefore, I am quite glad that
>  there is childish bullshit to deal with - and knowing that so long as
>  there is man he will have childish bullshit with which to deal.  Do you
>  really think that QUALITY (Quality's Quality) is to be found somewhere
>  in the arena of philosophy?  To be sure, there is quality to philosophy,
>  but it is because it relates to us, children.  Grow down!  Jackass :) 
>  At least keep this in mind if you should come to despair over the
>  aimlessness of the 'purely' intellectual pursuits.  And sure, go ahead,
>  find this out for yourself, that's probably best, but at least consider
>  a little humility now: though I might not be able to prove it to you,
>  now, we noise-makers (not 'misfits') might have something that you will
>  value in the end.
> 
> 
> dmb says:
> 
> If you're glad to deal with childish bullshit and have no problem with
> the repeated violation of common standards of intellectual decency, then
> you probably don't care much about philosophy. I don't see much point in
> discussing philosophy with people who don't care about such things.

[Tim]
here i think you jump to a false conclusion.  First, there was a bit of
a nuance.  I didn't say that I was (necessarily) glad to deal with
childish bullshit.  I said that I was glad that there was childish
bullshit to deal with.  Certainly I wish there was a lot more maturity
in the world.  BUt I am glad to know that even if maturity become quite
ubiquitous, there will still be children to mess it up, to give us
childish bullshit to deal with.  Maturity ad nauseum would probably be
worse than childish bullshit ad nauseum, I'm guesing.

then you jump to the conclusion about my caring about philosophy.  maybe
you are right though since you say 'much'.  I certainly don't care about
philosophy if I am to think of it as a discontinuous aspect of life.  As
an integral aspect I care about it very much, but in so much as it bears
on living morality.  When I was younger I had a very strong
philosophical bent, and I was very earnest in my commitment to my
unspecified AIM.  Looking back - I achieved that AIM by the way - that
Aim was always an aim due to its reference and connection to some
greater living value.  Having attained it, I then turned around (the
drive that had driven me was no more), and wondered what good that
attainment might do for me.  So, to be sure, I no longer have any
intellectual level aim, and if that amounts to my not caring much about
philosophy, you are right.  But I do recognize the value to my earlier
search, and attainment, and I have a great deal of respect of it, etc.
and etc.  I can hang around such degeneracy, picking up the nuggets
that others offer me, sharing mine, ...  So again, it is one of those: I
care, but I don't care.  How about that? 

> 
>[dmb] The point, Tim, is that having an alternative point of view and being
> intellectually dishonest (or incompetent) are two completely different
> things.

[Tim]
sure, I agree.  But can you ever say, with 100% certainty, which
describes another's mind?

>[dmb] In a context like this, a well argued and well supported
> alternative view is a very exciting thing. A point of view held contrary
> to reason and evidence is one of the very worst things. That's what's
> infuriating about these so-called misfits.

[Tim]
let me assume for the moment that your infuriation is justified.  Even
then, I see no alternative but to take it in - in to yourself - and try
to find some other door (other than the front door from above), or
window, ...  what else is there?  if you can swing it you can turn to
cynicism: use your special abilities to fuck the unwitting.  Of course
that is the utter abandonment of the the MoM.  But within the MoM, do
you see an alternative?  This is no mere rhetorical question!  I see no
other option.  If we are fucked, how do you wanna go down, angel or
asshole?

was it Dan who said recently, we are all both?  That this is wisdom I
have no doubt.  I hope that it is possible for us angel-assholes to
comport ourselves in such a manner that we might still use the word
moral (I like 'justice').  I really think it can work.  In fact, I
really think it will work, some time.  Will it take 100,000 years?  Will
it take many cycles of population growth and mass die-off?  I don't
know.

Anyway, though there is indecency here too, I have loved this little
forum (for two months).  Intellectual frustration - even infuriation - I
hope you don't let it get you down.  If you want to turn cynic, what can
I say.  Who knows, maybe I do so before long too?

these are unreasonable times,
all the best,
Tim
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