[MD] Democritus and MoQ

[118]

Hi John,

I'll have to think about your statement below a little bit and I like
the realization of realization.  I am not quite sure what SOM is, and
I don't want to open that can of worms.  However, so that you
understand where I am at with that, I see SOM as a tool for
transferring intelligence between people.  If SOM implies the
realization of self, then you may have a point.  I have posted before
that I think the realization of self can only come by realizing
another.  By reflection through another person we realize self.  This
becomes even more evident through conversation.  If I did not see
another person, I probably would not be thinking about self much.
Instead of continually checking the mirror, I would simply be looking
to the outside.  My life would be more like the sequences of hand held
camera walking through life, always looking outward and never
wondering about self.

In this sense, the societal level may have a lot to do with realization of self.

Cheers,
Mark

On Sat, Jan 22, 2011 at 12:42 PM, John Carl <ridgecoyote at gmail.com> wrote:
> Mark and Jan-Anders,
>
> In my  view, which I offer here and value  for it's simplicity, SOM is the
> line between the 3rd level and the 4th.  That is, the realization of the
> self is the starting point of the 3rd level, and the realization of the
> realization of the self is the start of the 4th.  That's why I term SOM the
> kindergarten of the 4th level, but certainly not the whole thing.  It's the
> "beginning of wisdom".
>
> John the simple
>
> On Sat, Jan 22, 2011 at 2:37 AM, Jan-Anders <jananderses at telia.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi Mark
>>
>> I think the difference between the social level and the intellectual level
>> is based on the existence of a distance upon the social level which is the
>> place where intellectual concepts live. Thruths, myths, tales and questions.
>> In this world where humanity look at itself and perform its choices,
>> sometimes by chance and sometimes by necessity, like sailing. The conscious
>> state of the intellectual mind opens doors for other causes than chance and
>> necessity, like stupidity, greed or curiosity. The most interesting cause to
>> give fruit to something is the cause of Art, rta, Areté. Somewhere between
>> chance and necessity.
>>
>> A child can build a tower of blocks, it is more than something hapening
>> just out of chance, it will fall in the end by necessity as no tower can
>> grow to the sky. The balancing act is the art, rta, areté.
>>
>> JA
>>
>> moq_discuss-request at lists.moqtalk.org wrote 2011-01-21 20.17:
>>
>>> "Everything existing in the universe is the fruit of chance and necessity"
>>>
>>> is the one I wanted to discuss.  Based in Democritus' insight into the
>>> nature of physics, perhaps he had insight into MoQ.
>>>
>>> In this quote, we have split reality into chance and necessity which
>>> is another knife division of reality like the dynamic/static split.
>>> We have a pretty good analogy for what chance is, and have discussed
>>> that quite a bit in this forum.  I do not want to belabor that side of
>>> the split, but want to look into Necessity.  I have posted what I call
>>> Intent.  This can be loosely translated as will or even desire.  This
>>> Intent is all we have when we are first introduced to this world, from
>>> a personal level.  We of course also have our physical bodies and all
>>> that happens within them.  Intent could also be translated as
>>> necessity.  So, what is necessity?  I suppose it could be "that which
>>> we have to do".  Why is there something that we have to do?  Well,
>>> this is the connection with Intent.  It is something that we come
>>> with.  A tree is born to become a tree, that is its necessity.
>>>
>>> If we were to relegate the world of chance to that of static quality,
>>> and consider Necessity to be the dynamic aspect of Quality, then it
>>> may be possible to begin creating analogies of Dynamic Quality based
>>> on such a premise.  From purely the human point of view, each level
>>> could be labeled with its own Intent.  This has actually been done by
>>> some in the forum already when they state that the organic level does
>>> what the organic level is supposed to do.  Or put another way, each
>>> level exists for itself, that is its intent.  It uses static quality
>>> to perform such necessary functions.
>>>
>>> In addition to placing some more descriptive terms into MoQ, it may
>>> also serve to better encompass our place in such a thing.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Mark
>>>
>>>  Moq_Discuss mailing list
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