[MD] Democritus and MoQ

Mon Jan 24 19:54:04 PST 2011

Hi Marsha,

A while back I proposed that once Pirsig had written ZMM, he no longer
had much control over what the character would be.  In fact, by
writing, he relinquished all control.  Therefore, placing quotes from
Pirsig concerning Phaedrus, really carry no weight.  Of course, I was
met with disdain and contempt for this concept.  In fact, when I
proposed that I could perhaps interpret ZMM and Lila in a way
different from some, this was also met with incredulity.  Any good
book has multiple interpretations, and nobody has rights to the
correct interpretation.  There are some that want to wind MoQ up like
a watch and watch it tick away.  For me, they are the ones who prevent
its progress.  But you know all this, and have your own
interpretation.

There is no reason why we cannot modernize a quote from Democritus to
help elaborate on MoQ.  Chance and necessity: Static and Dynamic
Quality.  Perhaps it is too simple to be true.  Let's throw up some
smoke screens to make Quality much more complicated why don't we.  We
all know what Quality is, the problem lies where we try to use the
intellect to inscribe it.  Pesky intellect, seems to always get in the
way of awakening and awareness.  Let's tie Quality down like a
tethered hot air balloon.  Must be possible.

Cheers,
Mark

On Mon, Jan 24, 2011 at 1:25 AM, MarshaV <valkyr at att.net> wrote:
>
> Greetings Jan-Anders,
>
> Since ZMM and LILA are literary works of art, it might be worth considering this quote:
>
> "Every reader, as he reads, is actually the reader of himself. The writer's work is only a kind of optical instrument he provides the reader so he can discern what he might never have seen in himself without this book. The reader's recognition in himself of what the book says is the proof of the book's truth."
>     ---Marcel Proust
>
>
> Marsha
>
>
>
>
> On Jan 23, 2011, at 2:17 PM, Jan-Anders wrote:
>
>> Hi John, the simple (and Bodvar, behind the curtain)
>>
>> I try to keep tight to RMP and ch. 12 in Lila, where he explains how the 4 levels are connected to the subject-object metaphysics (SOM).
>> Inorganic-biological patterns are substance and thus "objective" while social-intellectual patterns are not substance and thus "subjective".
>>
>> RMP writes in the end of the chapter that there must be some kind of ethics or moral that leads us through the dilemma between necessity or determinism on one side and free chaotic will by chance on the other.
>>
>> This MOQ show us that, the ethic or (undefinable?) moral is the characteristics of the dynamic quality. I call it an ethic balance in three classes but it is still the same moral. Art is a balance between energy, pattern and value.
>>
>> Flat dog - no good....
>>
>> Jan-Anders
>>
>> moq_discuss-request at lists.moqtalk.org skrev 2011-01-23 08.01:
>>> Mark and Jan-Anders,
>>>
>>> In my  view, which I offer here and value  for it's simplicity, SOM is the
>>> line between the 3rd level and the 4th.  That is, the realization of the
>>> self is the starting point of the 3rd level, and the realization of the
>>> realization of the self is the start of the 4th.  That's why I term SOM the
>>> kindergarten of the 4th level, but certainly not the whole thing.  It's the
>>> "beginning of wisdom".
>>>
>>> John the simple
>>>
>>> On Sat, Jan 22, 2011 at 2:37 AM, Jan-Anders<jananderses at telia.com>  wrote:
>>>
>>>> >  Hi Mark
>>>> >
>>>> >  I think the difference between the social level and the intellectual level
>>>> >  is based on the existence of a distance upon the social level which is the
>>>> >  place where intellectual concepts live. Thruths, myths, tales and questions.
>>>> >  In this world where humanity look at itself and perform its choices,
>>>> >  sometimes by chance and sometimes by necessity, like sailing. The conscious
>>>> >  state of the intellectual mind opens doors for other causes than chance and
>>>> >  necessity, like stupidity, greed or curiosity. The most interesting cause to
>>>> >  give fruit to something is the cause of Art, rta, Aret?. Somewhere between
>>>> >  chance and necessity.
>>>> >
>>>> >  A child can build a tower of blocks, it is more than something hapening
>>>> >  just out of chance, it will fall in the end by necessity as no tower can
>>>> >  grow to the sky. The balancing act is the art, rta, aret?.
>>>> >
>>>> >  JA
>>>> >
>>>> >  moq_discuss-request at lists.moqtalk.org  wrote 2011-01-21 20.17:
>>>> >
>>>>> >>  "Everything existing in the universe is the fruit of chance and necessity"
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>  is the one I wanted to discuss.  Based in Democritus' insight into the
>>>>> >>  nature of physics, perhaps he had insight into MoQ.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>  In this quote, we have split reality into chance and necessity which
>>>>> >>  is another knife division of reality like the dynamic/static split.
>>>>> >>  We have a pretty good analogy for what chance is, and have discussed
>>>>> >>  that quite a bit in this forum.  I do not want to belabor that side of
>>>>> >>  the split, but want to look into Necessity.  I have posted what I call
>>>>> >>  Intent.  This can be loosely translated as will or even desire.  This
>>>>> >>  Intent is all we have when we are first introduced to this world, from
>>>>> >>  a personal level.  We of course also have our physical bodies and all
>>>>> >>  that happens within them.  Intent could also be translated as
>>>>> >>  necessity.  So, what is necessity?  I suppose it could be "that which
>>>>> >>  we have to do".  Why is there something that we have to do?  Well,
>>>>> >>  this is the connection with Intent.  It is something that we come
>>>>> >>  with.  A tree is born to become a tree, that is its necessity.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>  If we were to relegate the world of chance to that of static quality,
>>>>> >>  and consider Necessity to be the dynamic aspect of Quality, then it
>>>>> >>  may be possible to begin creating analogies of Dynamic Quality based
>>>>> >>  on such a premise.  From purely the human point of view, each level
>>>>> >>  could be labeled with its own Intent.  This has actually been done by
>>>>> >>  some in the forum already when they state that the organic level does
>>>>> >>  what the organic level is supposed to do.  Or put another way, each
>>>>> >>  level exists for itself, that is its intent.  It uses static quality
>>>>> >>  to perform such necessary functions.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>  In addition to placing some more descriptive terms into MoQ, it may
>>>>> >>  also serve to better encompass our place in such a thing.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>  Regards,
>>>>> >>  Mark
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