[MD] Words and concepts

Sun Jun 12 07:11:32 PDT 2011

Ron,

I have no idea what you are talking about.  

I recently had a houseguest, and of course I talked a little about the MoQ.  
When asked "what is a static pattern?", I found my definition quite useful 
as a starting point of explanation.  I am not trying to subject any definition 
concerning the Intellectual Level on anyone.  

Marsha 

On Jun 12, 2011, at 9:58 AM, X Acto wrote:

> Marsha,
> Your stance appears to be a reactionary response to objectivism. Like a slave 
> who
> after having been freed still battles with the chains of bondage.
> 
> What is being argued is that it is already agreed apon that Quality is Dynamic.
> It's what unites us as a group that rejects objectivism.
> 
> But in order to understand, to function, to act moraly, it must
> be inteligible. To be moral is to be inteligible, to have limit, order
> and meaning . To make prefferences as everchanging patterns
> of value. It's what it means to be a collection of choices.
> 
> Intellect is the most moral level, the highest form of good.
> 
> This is a crucial conflict point for the SOM as intellect camp.
> 
> .......Ron
> 
> 
> ...........
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: MarshaV <valkyr at att.net>
> To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
> Sent: Sun, June 12, 2011 8:49:54 AM
> Subject: Re: [MD] Words and concepts
> 
> 
> Hi Horse,
> 
> I think a great place to look for "ever-changing" as I present it is in the MoQ 
> Textbook 5.8.4 THE MOQ, DUKKHA AND AVIDAYA (IGNORANCE) 
> 
> 
> "...  As Hagen (1997, p.30) notes, one of the most fundamental truths noted by 
> the Buddha is that all aspects of our experience are in constant flux and 
> change.    According to the Buddha, when a person ignores this truth they 
> subject themselves to dukkha."  
> 
> 
> ...
> 
> "...  Following Taoism, Hagen sees that the fundamental nature of reality is 
> change and reality can be handled more effectively if this is realised. This is 
> because though irritation and discomfort will tend to arise, they will also 
> eventually tend to subside. Dukkha occurs primarily because we wish things were 
> different i.e. had a permanent, static nature."
> 
>   "In order to understand what is being said here, one should try and imagine 
> all things, objects of experience and oneself, the one who is experiencing, as 
> just a flow of perceptions. We do not know that there is something ‘out there.’ 
> We have only experiences of colours, shapes, tactile data, and so on. We also 
> don’t know that we ourselves are anything than a further series of experiences. 
> Taken together, there is only an ever-changing flow of perceptions 
> (vijnaptimatra). (Williams, 1989, p.83)"
> 
> ...
> 
>   "This is supported by Herbert Guenther (1957, p.144) who adds:
> 
>   "Experience is the central theme of Buddhism, not theoretical postulation and 
> deductive verification. Since no experience occurs more than once and all 
> repeated experiences actually are only analogous occurrences, it follows that a 
> thing or material substance can only be said to be a series of events 
> interpreted as a thing, having no more substantiality than any other series of 
> events we may arbitrarily single out.""
> 
>   "After some thought, I think Guenther’s comment is valid as I can’t think of 
> any events that are repeated exactly. Moreover, like the concept of ‘self’, 
> there’s no absolute objective rule to judge when one event starts and another 
> stops. This means that any concept or term is fundamentally indeterminate, 
> imprecise and, as time passes, increasingly less useful." 
> 
> 
> 
> I have meant what is very similar to what is quoted here.
> 
>                                                     
> Marsha  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Jun 12, 2011, at 7:47 AM, MarshaV wrote:
> 
>> 
>> Horse,
>> 
>> I have only a static 'understanding' of the MoQ.  I am not trying, one way or 
>> another, to make anybody else accept it.  I am still exploring different 
>> aspects.  Patterns happens to be one area that I found interesting right from 
>> the beginning.  My mention of Arlo was just kidding.  I meant no harm.  I think 
>> Arlo's project is great.  
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Marsha 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Jun 12, 2011, at 7:18 AM, Horse wrote:
>> 
>>> Marsha
>>> 
>>> While I'm sure Arlo will be flattered, the reason that Dave spends so much time 
>>> on what you say is because, over the years, you have managed, consistently, to 
>>> misunderstand Pirsigs MoQ.
>>> You seem to have a very good grasp of Bo's MoQ, Marsha's MoQ, etc., etc. 
>>> However neither of the aforementioned (or the etc.'s) appear to have much in 
>>> common with the MoQ as described by Robert M. Pirsig and this, I believe, is the 
>>> point that DMB is trying to convey.
>>> He (and others) also needs to spend that amount of time because (as with Bo 
>>> previously) you are spending more than a reasonable amount of time promoting a 
>>> misinterpretation of Pirsigs MoQ on a forum that is here to discuss Pirsig's 
>>> MoQ.
>>> 
>>> Still, as Dave says in another post, it has given him (and a few others) the 
>>> chance to defend the MoQ against the sort of misinterpretations that could (and 
>>> does in at least on case) cause confusion.
>>> 
>>> Horse
>>> 
>>> On 11/06/2011 20:51, MarshaV wrote:
>>>> dmb,
>>>> 
>>>> I'm so flattered that you need so much of my attention.  Nine out of ten of 
>>>> your posts are directed towards what I have said.  While I think you are cute, I 
>>>> still cannot vote for you to become prom queen.  I am going to vote for Arlo.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Marsha
>>> 
>>> -- 
>> 
> 
> 
> 
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