[MD] Free Will

[Steven Peterson]

Hi John,

I'm packing for a short trip, but quickly...

You concede that free will is redundant, but below in response to my
claim that we don't choose our values but rather we ARE our values you
said that "Choice and valuing are synonomous.  Is what I've been
saying.  What we choose is what we value.  What we value is what we
choose.  Individuality IS our choice, so thus it could be said that we
don't make choices, we ARE our choices.  That's just as true and
points to the fundamentalness of choice as well." If, as you say, we
ARE our choices and values and choices are, as you say, synonymous,
that it sounds like you are ready to agree that we ARE our values. But
then, saying "we choose our values" seems empty. We choose our
choices? Sure, but the free will question is about HOW choices are
made.

Best,
Steve


On Sun, Jun 26, 2011 at 8:26 PM, John Carl <ridgecoyote at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Steve.  Here's my reply at my new ponderous rate of return:
>
>
> On Mon, Jun 20, 2011 at 8:35 AM, Steven Peterson <peterson.steve at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> Hi John,
>
>
> What you are missing is that the above dilemma (the traditional free
>
> will/ determinism problem) is a false choice that arrises only when we
>
> accept SOM premises. The MOQ denies both horns.
>
>
> John:
>
>
> The MoQ denies the fundamentalness of the subject/object split.  But it does
> not deny the pragmatic usefulness of the split.  The MoQ says that valuation
> is more fundamental that objectivism (SOM) and what I'm saying is that
> choice is fundamental to value.  You can't have Quality if you have no
> choice.  Chioice and Quality are  not pair of horns on an angry bull,
> Choice and Quality are the intertwined and spirallng co-existents of a
> single horn - sorta like the spirals on a unicorn's appendage.
>
>
> Ride the unicorn, Steve!  Choice is the magic power the universe bequeaths
> to sentience.
>
>
>
>> John:  Which hypothetical offers us the most good?  The most freedom of
>
>> action and moral culpability?  It seems to me on pragmatic basis alone,
> the
>
>> idea of being completely constrained would lead to a sort of intellectual
>
>> dead-endedness.
>
>
>
> Steve:
>
> Pragmatism is not a matter of believing what you wish were true.
>
>
> John:
>
>
> Of course it isn't.  For any truth that is out of line with reality will
> force itself upon you, no matter how much you might wish otherwise.  But for
> matters of sheer intellectual speculation which can't be proven one way or
> the other, Pragmatism is useful for deciding which intellectual pattern
> offers the most room for play.  To my mind, a deterministic universe is a
> closed system that makes no sense to my mind, and offers no joy to my heart.
>
>
>
>
>
> Steve:
>
>
> I would say that a Jamesian pragmatic evaluation of the situation goes
>
> like this: if determinism were true, we would behave exactly as we
>
> already behave and have no choice in the matter even though we have
>
> the feeling of willing some of our acts. If free will is true, then we
>
> would behave exactly as we behave but _do_ have a choice in the
>
> matter. If determinism is true, then your belief in free will is
>
> causally determined. If free will is true, then I am freely choosing
>
> not to be able to make sense of it. Either way, we behave exactly as
>
> we behave. This so-called metaphysical problem is a difference that
>
> makes no difference in how people behave in practice.
>
>
> John:
>
>
> It makes a difference in how people feel, and in the end I have to believe
> that how people feel makes a big difference in how they behave.  This is one
> of those conundrums that is resolved more easily with art than science -
> with rhetoric than logic - with poetry than prose.  A longish short story by
> Ken Kesey called Demon Box, based upon Maxwell's Demon, is the best argument
> I could offer for my conclusion that "entropy is only a problem in a closed
> system.
>
>
> I'm sure I could even offer empirical psychological evidence for the
> preponderance of depression and anti-social behavior on the part of those
> who believe most strongly in a deterministic universe.  It's certainly been
> the preponderance of my experience, that those who struggle the most against
> the idea of free will, have hidden monsters in their closets and history.
>
>
> Steve:
>
>
> The feeling of
>
> having a choice points to something that is either real or illusory,
>
> but either way, we still do what we do, so this problem is a fake
>
> problem with no consequences.
>
>
>
> John:
>
>
> Well, I plainly disagree.  But hey, that's my choice.
>
>
>
>> John:
>
>>
>
>> Yes, but the MoQ also opens our eyes to the fact that we CHOOSE our
> values.
>
>
>
> Steve:
>
> That's news to me. Please demonstrate you ability to value something
>
> you don't value as a matter of will by, say, willing yourself to value
>
> theocracy over democracy or something simpler like willing yourself to
>
> prefer chocolate when you already prefer vanilla.
>
>
> We don't choose our values, we are our values.
>
>
>
> John:  Choice and valuing are synonomous.  Is what I've been saying.  What
> we choose is what we value.  What we value is what we choose.  Individuality
> IS our choice, so thus it could be said that we don't make choices, we ARE
> our choices.  That's just as true and points to the fundamentalness of
> choice as well.
>
>
> Is what I've been saying for quite some time.
>
>
>
> Steve:
>
> But I've always granted that we make choices. My question for you has
>
> been, what does it mean to say that this choosing is "free"? We
>
> certainly have will. We have moods, preferences, intentions, etc. But
>
> where do these come from? In what sense are they "free"?
>
>
> John:
>
>
> I've conceded by now that "free will" is a redundancy.  Will exists only as
> an aspect of choice.  Therefore, any true will is fundamentally free and to
> say "free" will is as silly as saying "ATM machine".  But lots of people say
> that.  As well as "PIN Number".  What can you do?  Human rhetoric sometimes
> falls short of high logical value.    Welcome to the world.
>
>
> Now get on your unicorn and ride that bitch.