[MD] The notion of Free Will

[Mary]

>>> 27 jun 2011 kl. 18.44 sMarsha wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Not to be repeating myself, I neither accept the notion of freewill,
nor reject it.  Same goes with determinism and causation.  I accept that
these are conventional (static) notions, but not Ultimately real.  While
living within a conventional culture it seems wise to sustain social and
biological patterns whenever necessary for one will be held responsible to
that level's "moral" code (laws and punishment. ) 


Well put, Marsha.

How valuable is static free will?

Pretty statically valuable.  

Was Steve's original question about the source of preferences?  

You can't will yourself to like something you don't really like, even if the
people you most care about do.  The best you can hope for in that case is to
pretend.   ... for their sake.  

But you'll never like it.  ...Yourself.  

You can't make yourself believe something you don't believe.

All the choices we make are predicated on what we believe.  -tell me that's
wrong and I won't believe you. ;)



Making choices is easier than changing beliefs.  

Dig to the bottom of this logical pile and what have you got?  Seems to me
that before we can figure out whether or not we have free will we have to
ask ourselves where belief comes from.  

Yeah, there's all the conventional answers.  Beliefs come from our parents,
our upbringing, our _experiences_. 

 Hmmm.  Where have we heard about experiences before?  Pirsig says we
_experience_ DQ, and in the instant we do it turns into SQ.  We experience
lots of SQ too, so it's all kind of mixed up in the same bucket.  I don't
want to go there right now, though that could be an interesting road to go
down later.  

What I want to ask is how this relates to the free will vs determinism
debate.

Pirsig also says DQ is always GOOD.  That changes the rules, doesn't it?  If
all DQ is GOOD and we experience DQ, and our beliefs are based on
experience, and our preferences are based on our beliefs...  

then we have no real free will at any time - it's all determinism, since to
choose the BAD over the GOOD would be unacceptable, wouldn't it?  ...or
would it?

Are we deterministic slaves to an always-GOOD DQ?  What CHOICE would we
have?

Pirsig says we are always following DQ.  If so, where's the CHOICE?  Is it
between DQ and SQ then?  GOOD and so-so?

What IS the true source of our preferences?  Ultimately, do we have any
choice about our preferences?  

This, I think, was Steve's question.















>> Marsha,
>> 
>> It means whatever it conventional means.  What is the meaning of the
pattern named Justice?  How would you describe its meaning?  How would you
describe the meaning of any pattern.   I understand static patterns to
represent a collection of interdependent, ever-changing particular momentary
events (process) which constantly change as they arise, abide and pass away:
and as they are continually altered by an individual?s static history and
the dynamics of the event.  I have mentioned before that I tend also to
think of patterns, pattern(x) for instance, to include all-that-is
opposite-from-non-pattern(x).  That may include a dictionary definition.  -
The horns of a rabbit might be a static notion or pattern.  
>> 
>> How well do you think you understand my explanation?  
>> 
>> 
>> Marsha  
> 
> Not really sure. You intend to sell a Norwegian Blue Parrot?
> 
> Try again, please.
> 
> Jan-Anders




Jan-Anders,

I try to always be quite clear that what I offer is my own exploration and
analysis.  I would hope my use of "it seems" or "for me" would indicate what
I think as indefinite and personal.  The MoQ is very new and hasn't come
with a precise glossary.   All I say is considered by me to be
work-in-process.  Please, I claim no authority.   I am here to explore and
deepen my understanding of the MoQ, not to force my point-of-view on anyone
else.  


Marsha




 
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