[MD] Hall of Fame

Tue Mar 15 13:51:10 PDT 2011

Hi Dan.

(Dan).
"What the Metaphysics of Quality indicates is that the twentieth
century intellectual faith in man's basic goodness as spontaneous and
natural is disastrously naIve. The ideal of a harmonious society in
which everyone without coercion cooperates happily with everyone else
for the mutual good of all is a devastating fiction.

(Adrie).
Huxley's 'Island' indicates the same patterns and endconclusions,however is
is not
dressed with a metaphysikal stance,but submerged into mysticism.
Huxley's work in 'Island', shows the impossibility of a Qualityisland, guess
one can call it
"qualitopia", as core in the work.The endconclusion is about what you and
Robert are trying to indicate in what you wrote above.
Strange however is that trying to live and think by the creed of
Quality,..is a form of
idealism, and the Metaphysiks....is trying, really written in fact to deny
idealism as value
to develop.

'Island', Qualitopia really ,is reflected in Huxley's work as an
impossibility to achieve
the 'Here and Now', is faster than history and the future.....weird almost,
its about the same projection in the core of the toughts, and it is to be
taken into account that Pirsig uses
Huxley's term "Here and Now"(opening and end of the book,)in the annotations
on
Frederick Copleston,at the part as where he is stripping Bradley to pieces
in the endline's.

(Dan)
(Quoting Pirsig in LILA.)

"It isn't consistent with scientific fact. Studies of bones left by
the cavemen indicate that cannibalism, not cooperation, was a
pre-society norm. Primitive tribes such as the American Indians have
no record of sweetness and cooperation with other tribes. They
ambushed them, tortured them, dashed their children's brains out on
rocks. If man is basically good, then maybe it is man's basic goodness
which invented social institutions to repress this kind of biological
savagery in the first place." [LILA]

(Adrie)
Ah well, This sentence always kept on bugging me,since i did an incredible
amount of study on Anthropology, Darwinism and neo-Darwinism,but also a very
intense study of the work of
Jaques Soustelle,a French Antropologist who became a world autority in the
field of
Indian tribes in South America, before the turning year of Columbus's
invasion on the west Indies and Costa Rica.
In short, The patterns you are referring to as for the part of cannibalism,
are about the same
in most big parts of the world.If one study's all the patterns of
cannibalism and primitive behaviour, they seem to share all the same
blueprint in their originating forms.

The reasons for cannibalism are not mostly simply primitive patterns pur
sang.
Some patterns are very persistent. allow me to give few examples.

1) nessesity,..killing a man to eat him,because of needs of the proteins.
    Tibet, India..
2)Killing others off spring to maximise the changes of one's own off spring.

3)Lions and Bears do the same as primitive pattern,entering a situation with
a mother bear
   or a mother lioness, giving lead to her off spring, an unknown new
presenting himself
   lion or male bear, will kill the offspring that is unknown to him ,
immediately.
   (Killing as pattern to maximise the changes of the own projected
off-spring.)

3) Offers to the gods,the famous flower wars that were raging in South
America before the
    Spanish Conquistadores came, already decimated the population to 50 % of
what it was
    in the past before the invasion, ie, The empires of the Toltecs, the
Pipil toltecs(dwarfform
    Toltecs, bit like Pygmee's in Africa)   the Mayan's etc,...were already
found at the
    moment of very important decay in their civilisations.
    The pattern of decay, as we know nowadays was not so different from the
Roman pattern
    of total decay.
   -Mel Gibsons Jaguar Paw comes to mind when i'm thinking about the famous
year
    1472, Soustelle translated the year as a mark in the Mayan calender, he
translated it as
    The year "1 rietstengel" (Dutch,) i think translating it in English a
bit freely is to read it as
    the year  "1 caneshank perhaps", exactly this year marks also the
endscene in Jaguar
    Paw.Gibson did his research.

Now for the reason as to why it is not in harmony with scientifical facts,
is that scientifical facts, the discovered ones, are only representing a
very small segment of the percieved reality.

Pirsig  (quoted by Dan)
""It isn't consistent with scientific fact. Studies of bones left by
the cavemen indicate that cannibalism, not cooperation, was a
pre-society norm."

(Adrie)
Allow me to give a clarification.

Most scientifical facts about cannibalism are directly derived from fossil
findings,in grotto's
in imprints in dried up river beds,fossilised food remnants,etc...
A rule of thumb since Neo-Darwinism moved into mainstream thinking is this
one,...
The fossils that are found  of a species are never the first appearances or
never the last.
Its always only a segment of history that is recorded, in an arrowhead, a
bone, a lost meal.

The same goes for the cave paintings really,having the look and feel of
primitivism
they are really showing intellectual behaviour, acting as a group to hunt
for pray is an intellectual pattern. Using paint to depict the scenery of
that time is not only a form of
communication but also a artform.This was in the same time of the
cannibalism.
A good lead is the cave of Lascaux in France, but America is also full of
them.
Pirsig is not a very good Antropologist in my opinion.But let us keep in
mind that Einstein
was barely capable of boiling an eg.

To come back on your words. (Dan, talking about Detroit)

"On a different note, most manufacturing in the state of Illinois has
ceased to exist. The town where I live is a prime example... there are
many old buildings standing empty and slowly falling into neglect...
benign neglect is the word to use. Weeds, small shrubbery, and even
trees sprout through dilipidated roofs and out of broken windows.
Inside, old rusty machinery still awaits workers that will never
return. I've never been to Detroit but I suspect it is much the same."

(Adrie)

Yes correct , the weeds, the shrubs at the rooftops is also what i could
observe in the documentary about Detroit, the total decay, decay even of
history itself..., like as if this pattern of decay emerges from the past ,
not the future, Quality reversing time as a pattern.

(Dan)
Part of this problem arose on account of the corporate tax rates
driving business out of the state... the taxes being necessary to pay
for entitlements voted in by corrupt politicians and well-meaning
intellectually-based liberalism. But the bigger picture (I think)
points towards the natural evolutionary forces at work in a
globally-based economy.

(Adrie)
The Japanese people that i know on the workfloor have a word , a term
really, for what you just coined in,hmm, however if i come to think of
it,its not really a word,nor a term,
its a concept really.

GLOCALISATION.
two terms contracted, just think of what you wrote,above and the possible
implications
of a term like that.Fucking briljant.

The natural evolutionary forces are the working ants on the floor responding
to Quality

Ps , only as an aside of course,searching on google earth for the tectonic
plate that is shifting under Japan, i found Tinian,observed it for the first
time, really, from above,and apparently
The pits were Little boy an Fat Man were assembled before they were taken to
the land of
the rising sun,are still there, encapsulated and covered with glass.
You will find them on the above side of the island, top corner.very
interesting.

Thank you for your time , Dan.

2011/3/15 Dan Glover <daneglover at gmail.com>

> Hello everyone
>
> On Mon, Mar 14, 2011 at 2:11 PM, ADRIE KINTZIGER <parser666 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > Hey , Dan.
> > After your mentioning of criminality in the Chicago area,i'v downloaded
> > 'The untouchables' with Sean Connery and Kevin Costner, and thereafter a
> > documentry
> > about Detroit, apparently the old Ford building are still
> there...decaying.
> > Nice, i understand the setting in Chicago better now.
>
> Hi Adrie
>
> Yes The Untouchables is good. Another good movie filmed here is The
> Road to Perdition with Tom Hanks. These and other movies like them
> attempt to depict the savage history of Chicago-land politics. They
> tend to romanticize the times though, in my opinion. Things were much
> more savage than depicted in movies.
>
> In LILA, Robert Pirsig talks about how intellectual patterns of value
> came to the forefront in the early 20th century and attempted to
> control biological excesses by passing laws, such as Prohibition. This
> (in retrospect) only exasperbated the problems, leading to more crime,
> not less.
>
> "What the Metaphysics of Quality indicates is that the twentieth
> century intellectual faith in man's basic goodness as spontaneous and
> natural is disastrously naIve. The ideal of a harmonious society in
> which everyone without coercion cooperates happily with everyone else
> for the mutual good of all is a devastating fiction.
>
> "It isn't consistent with scientific fact. Studies of bones left by
> the cavemen indicate that cannibalism, not cooperation, was a
> pre-society norm. Primitive tribes such as the American Indians have
> no record of sweetness and cooperation with other tribes. They
> ambushed them, tortured them, dashed their children's brains out on
> rocks. If man is basically good, then maybe it is man's basic goodness
> which invented social institutions to repress this kind of biological
> savagery in the first place." [LILA]
>
> What the early 20th century liberals failed to take into account was
> that intellectual laws would not control crime... social patterns like
> handcuffs and bullets were required for that. In the end, Prohibition
> was repealed but the damage was done. Politically, Chicago is still
> recovering from the graft and corruption introduced by the rise in
> crime and subsequent infiltration of criminal elements into the
> mainstream. Even state-wide the effects are being felt as we have one
> former governor in prison and another facing prison time.
>
> On a different note, most manufacturing in the state of Illinois has
> ceased to exist. The town where I live is a prime example... there are
> many old buildings standing empty and slowly falling into neglect...
> benign neglect is the word to use. Weeds, small shrubbery, and even
> trees sprout through dilipidated roofs and out of broken windows.
> Inside, old rusty machinery still awaits workers that will never
> return. I've never been to Detroit but I suspect it is much the same.
>
> Part of this problem arose on account of the corporate tax rates
> driving business out of the state... the taxes being necessary to pay
> for entitlements voted in by corrupt politicians and well-meaning
> intellectually-based liberalism. But the bigger picture (I think)
> points towards the natural evolutionary forces at work in a
> globally-based economy.
>
> Thank you for your thoughts,
>
> Dan
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