[MD] MOQ and Completeness Theories (Sorry, Godel.)

[Jan-Anders]

At the biological level free will is expressed by mutations and very 
slow action compared to human intelligence.

J-A

moq_discuss-request at lists.moqtalk.org wrote 2011-03-23 15.41:
> Hello Dan
>
>> >
>> >  Ron:
>> >  "free will" is natural selection. Is'nt it?.
> Dan:
> Natural selection pertains to the biological level. There is no choice
> involved. The fittest survive to pass on those survival traits while
> the less fit hit an evolutionary dead end. At the biological level,
> the environment seems to determine the fittest. For example, global
> warming is threatening many species not able to adapt. No choice is
> involved.
>
> Ron:
> First off, thank you for the discussion Dan.
> I must begin by placing my comment within the context of Pirsigs
> theory of evolution, the idea that Quality operates on discreet levels.
> This gives us as adherents to this theory pause to reconsider the implications
> of the idea of what is meant by "natural selection".
> Choice, or Quality, is indeed involved only on the biological level as you
> state.
> The bedrock of RMP's assertion in this matter is indeed that "free will" is
> Quality
> it is what he meant when he stated that atoms may be viewed as prefering their
> bonds
> that "free will" is exercised on the inorganic level as well. The consistancy of
> this statement
> follows that "natural selection" and "free will"?is indeed Quality but witin
> differing contexts.
>
>
> Dan:
> Even social patterns seem bound by determinism and not free will. Take
> the act of circumcising males. Jewish men have been circumcised for
> centuries but they are still born with foreskins. If evolution was a
> matter of free will, wouldn't Jewish males be born sans foreskin by
> now?
>
> Ron:
> I think that Pirsigs explanation of the four levels of Quality adequitly
> describes this
> Phenomena by asserting that the comparison drawn above refers to two different
> levels or types of evolution. Cutting off the foreskin is a social level value,
> an intellectual
> alteration of the biological form not an intellectual or social selection based
> on biologicaly
> inherited traits.
>
> Dan:
> Intellectual patterns may exhibit evolutionary free will though to be
> honest I am hard pressed to think of any examples. Can you?
>
> Ron:
> Human rights, trial by jury, self government.....just off the top of my head
> are examples given by Bob Pirsig if I'm not mistaken... sanitation..
> agriculture, science and medicine...all contributed to increased quality
> of life and population explosions to name some biological benefits.
>