[MD] The Hero's journey

Sun Nov 27 13:55:57 PST 2011

On Nov 27, 2011, at 3:45 PM, 118 wrote:

> Hi Marsha,
> I suspected you would come in with the Einstein analogy, its fully
> googleable ("Great Googly Moogly" as Zappa once said).  That is why I
> used the phraseology that I did.  

> Mark:
> Still, I did not determine your reply.

Marsha:
You have lots to say.  Got any proof?  

> Mark:
> Yes, Einstein tried to put Quality under the laws of physics.  Quality
> is not deterministic it is based on free will, all the way from us to
> the photon.  It is not based on chance, we do not throw the dice in
> life.  But, you already know that, I think.

Marsha:
Quality may be compared to quantum theory's non-locality.  Static quality exists in stable patterns relative to other patterns.  Patterns have no independent existence.  No hidden variables, only Quality.  

> Mark:
> Are you saying that Bell trumps Einstein, or did you just get the
> quote from an "I'm feeling lucky" search?  Well, Marsha, are you
> feeling lucky?  I am curious why you think that Bell's work created
> failure for Einstein.  If you place a quote, you are bound to be asked
> questions about it.  Perhaps it was just mindless (deterministic)
> posting.  Only you can tell me. 

Marsha:
I'll let you dynamically auto-write your own replay so you can address anything that comes to your mind.  That's your normal mode isn't it?  

Marsha 

> 
> Mark
> 
> On Sun, Nov 27, 2011 at 10:55 AM, MarshaV <valkyr at att.net> wrote:
>> 
>>        "..., it has been repeated _at nauseam_ that Einstein's main objection to quantum theory was its lack of determinism:  Einstein could not abide a God who plays dice.  Buy what annoyed Einstein was not lack of determinism, it was the apparent failure of _locality_ in the theory on account of entanglement.  Einstein recognized that, given the predictions of quantum theory, only a deterministic theory could eliminate this non-locality, and so he realized that a local theory must be deterministic.  But it was the locality that mattered to him, not the determinism.  We now understand, due to the work of Bell, that Einstein's quest for a local theory was bound to fail.
>> 
>>        (Maudlin, Tim, 'Quantum Non-Locality & Relativity')
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Nov 27, 2011, at 1:40 PM, 118 wrote:
>> 
>>> Hi Ron,
>>> Yes, usefulness is key.  Let's throw out the useless.  Where do we start?
>>> 
>>> The usefulness of wave functions is yet to be determined.  Sure they are part of the "theory",  in fact, they are the theory.  A new mathematical model is needed for particle physics, to get away from statistics.  That would be useful.  But, how would current physicists get their funding?
>>> 
>>> Christ is a useful function in the theory of Christianity too.  Its usefulness seems more common than wavelets.  Such usefulness has killed many more people than the nuclear bomb, so far...
>>> 
>>> Let's not tie MoQ to statistics.  "God" does not throw dice, and this is not a casino.  Free will is not a matter of chance.
>>> 
>>> Sent laboriously from an iPhone,
>>> Mark
>>> 
>>> On Nov 27, 2011, at 8:11 AM, X Acto <xacto at rocketmail.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> Robert Pirsig:
>>>>> 
>>>>> "This is the usual argument against the philosophic idealism
>>>>> that is part of the MOQ so it had better be answered here.
>>>>> It is similar to the question, “If a tree falls in the forest and
>>>>> nobody hears it, does it make a sound?” The historic
>>>>> answer of the idealists is, “What tree?”
>>>>> "In order to ask this question you have to presuppose the existence
>>>>> of the falling tree and then ask whether this presupposed tree would
>>>>> vanish if nobody were there. Of course, it wouldn’t vanish! It has
>>>>> already been presupposed.
>>>>> "This presupposition is a standard logical fallacy known as a
>>>>> hypothesis contrary to fact. It is the “hypothetical question” that is
>>>>> always thrown out of court as inadmissible." [LILA'S CHILD annotation 80]
>>>>> 
>>>>> Ron comments:
>>>>> In the context of "the historical response of the Idealists" (of which is part
>>>>> of the MoQ)it is to be clear about the context of the conversation, since
>>>>> a hypothosis always deals with presuppositions it only makes sense to follow through
>>>>> in the logical consistancy within the context and that they only work as hypothisis if
>>>>> they are taken to follow the patterns observed in experience.
>>>>> The people throwing out hypothisis based on the fact that they are hypothisis are positivists
>>>>> the aggressive sort which tends to take the tack that if it is not directly observed
>>>>> that it does not exist. Pirsig is saying that the type of question is thrown out not hypothetical
>>>>> questions in general.
>>>>> 
>>>>> According to Pirsig that which has value exists. In that order, if a hypothisis has value
>>>>> (the sort of value that is consistent with experience) and has been tested in experience
>>>>> ie. trees make sounds when they fall and dog dishes continue to exist , then the hypothisis
>>>>> certainly IS admissable because it also holds the power to make accurate predictions in
>>>>> experience.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Positing that trees dont make sounds and dog dishes vanish run contrary to patterns observed
>>>>> in experience it is the logical fallacy which is the "hypothisis contrary to fact" it is also a positivist
>>>>> position.
>>>>> 
>>>>> ..Which begs the question as to why , exactly, Dan brings this into the discussion with Matt to
>>>>> support his contention. Unless Dan is saying that Pirsig is supporting a positivist point of view
>>>>> in regard to biography and historical context.
>>>> 
>>>> Dan:
>>>> 
>>>> You have misunderstood the discussion, Ron. I didn't say that trees
>>>> don't make sounds and dog dishes disappear. I asked what did Robert
>>>> Pirsig mean by: what trees? I asked how to empirically verify the
>>>> existence of trees or dog dishes when we don't experience them... when
>>>> they are imaginary. You have miscontrued what I said. We are on
>>>> completely different pages so far as I can tell.
>>>> 
>>>> Thanks anyway,
>>>> 
>>>> Ron:
>>>> Yea, we are always on different pages when we disagree about anything.
>>>> 
>>>> Asking how to verify, as I stated before, and what I believe Pirsig means,
>>>> empirically, presupposed hypothetical trees, is  " a standard logical fallacy known as a
>>>> hypothesis contrary to fact. "
>>>> Eliminating all hypotheisis because it can not be empirically verified (observed) is the
>>>> position known as positivism. Steven Weinburg, a noted Quantum Physicist said this
>>>> about positivism:
>>>> "Wave functions are "real" for the same reasons quarks and symmetries are - because
>>>> it is useful to include them in our theories".
>>>> 
>>>> Pirsig says something similar:
>>>> "In order to ask this question you have to presuppose the existence
>>>> of the falling tree and then ask whether this presupposed tree would
>>>> vanish if nobody were there. Of course, it wouldn’t vanish! It has
>>>> already been presupposed."
>>>> 
>>>> In this light asking how to empirically verify presupposed trees is the problem
>>>> it is a logical fallacy to even ask the question.
>>>> 
>>>> ..thanks anyway
>>>> 
>>>> ..
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