[MD] The Birth of Tragedy/CH2 and the MOQ

[Arlo Bensinger]

[Mark]
I often ask my self where my ideas come from.

[Arlo]
This is basically the same question Phaedrus asked himself about the 
origins of hypotheses, and led him towards Poincare and Einstein. 
Although he doesn't mention them, both Eco and Peirce posit very similar 
answers, as does Nietzsche (and Dewey, and Northrop and James). While 
their analogies differ, the "flash of light" is often painted as a 
sudden, unexpected, pre-intellectual moment of aesthetic awareness.

And, in keeping with all these authors more-or-less 'expansion' of the 
meaning of 'art', there is almost inconsequential difference between the 
'flash' that brings forth an hypothesis followed by a new theory, and a 
'flash' that brings forth an insight that is followed by a painting, a 
song, a book, a poem, a rotisserie, a metaphor, or a well-tuned 
motorcycle. In all cases (I think) its a question of 'creativity', or to 
use Campbell's word "the birth of something new".

[Mark]
Trying to determine that in an sq setting is as weird as trying to find 
the "Self" within a logical construct. The painting cannot turn around 
and describe the painter.

[Arlo]
I know the concept of "infinite regress" is disturbing to some, I think 
there is a strong psychological impulse to want those waves to reach a 
shore, but I personally think there is a great beauty in this metaphor. 
Once you ask "what is the eye that sees me?" (as Platt used to ask), you 
must then answer "what is the eye that sees that first eye?" and so on 
and so on... Its arbitrary, really, where you want to 'stop' the 
process. I think this was a brilliant insight in Hofstadter's "I am a 
Strange Loop". I think its also revealed (as Hofstadter points out) in 
works such as Magritte's "The False Mirror". "All this is just an 
analogy", as Pirsig wrote, and in the spirit of Hostadter could be 
restated "All this is just an analogy (including this sentence (and this 
one(and this one)...)...)". Anyways, I digress.

[Mark]
So perhaps it can be said that any creation as such can be evaluated on 
its usefulness.

[Arlo]
This is an interesting statement because it says, to me, "a creation can 
be evaluated on its value". What else can something be evaluated on? :-) 
Sadly, we have to use the language we have, and so its difficult to say 
things that from a MOQ-perspective aren't tautological or redundant.

But yes, I'd say that once you are aware that you are evaluating 'maps', 
rather than making Absolute judgements about which map is the One True 
Map, then I think 'usefulness' is precisely the measure that defines 
this. This is why I'm not really trying to map Nietzsche onto Pirsig, or 
do anything that would twist one map to conform to the other, but 
looking at points where there are similarities and also where one 
topology may be help illuminate the other.

[Mark]
A few weeks back I was discussing the way in which DQ and sq are 
symbiotic and cannot be separated. At that same time, I was 
perseverating on a description of how they interact (and I still am).

[Arlo]
I like the term 'symbiotic' here. Keep me posted on your ideas as they 
develop.

[Mark]
DQ changes sq, and sq provides direction to DQ.

[Arlo]
Right, and I think this is the foundational dialectic that prevents the 
MOQ from being a 'deterministic' philosophy. Responses to DQ alter the 
trajectory, create new possibilities and new options that would 
otherwise not appear. I think Nietzsche would agree that the structure 
of Apollonian form impacts the windows through which the Dionysian 
penetrates. Thus, although he was very convinced, for example, 
Beethoven's Ninth Symphony was evidence of a Apollonian/Dionysian 
convergence, I think he'd be the first to admit that dropped into the 
middle of an aboriginal culture it would not have the same power (if it 
had any power at all). And to which I'd add that aboriginal 'art' loses 
its power when viewed from other cultures as well.

In short, its not just about glorifying the Dionysian, but in 
understanding that Apollonian form has a significant, if not equal, role 
in the 'art' outcome. And I think this plays directly into Pirsig's 
lamentation of how structures in the West have been built in such a way 
as to impede, if not outright block, the Dionysian impulse. Its not 
about tearing structures down so much as its about rebuilding them in 
better ways.

[Mark]
What I am currently seeking for purposes of promotional presentations of 
MoQ, are analogies which give meaning to the way in which DQ and sq 
"interact". Your discussion on Nietzsche is helping me out, so thanks 
for that.

[Arlo]
Well, you're welcome, I'm more or less thinking through all this as I 
write it, and your comments are helping me out just as much.