[MD] Creative Freedom in Jazz

[Carl Thames]

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Dan Glover" <daneglover at gmail.com>
To: <moq_discuss at moqtalk.org>
Sent: Saturday, April 07, 2012 1:32 AM
Subject: Re: [MD] Creative Freedom in Jazz


> Hello everyone
>
> On Fri, Apr 6, 2012 at 4:07 PM, Carl Thames <cthames at centurytel.net> 
> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Dan:
>>> Well, possibly... but I'm not sure you're taking this part into account:
>>>
>>> “It’s very important to remember,” Evans says, “that no matter how far
>>> I might diverge or find freedom in this format, it only is free
>>> insofar as it has reference to the strictness of the original form.
>>> And that’s what gives it its strength. In other words, there is no
>>> freedom except in reference to something.”
>>>
>>> He is adamant that there is always a reference base pertaining
>>> strictly to the original form. That part is never gone... if it were,
>>> the work of art isn't good... in fact it would devolve into nonsense.
>>> At least that's how I read this.
>>
>>Carl:
>> I agree with you. I think he's talking about the expression of the idea,
>> rather than the idea though.
>
> Dan:
> Isn't art the expression of ideas, though?

Carl:
You contradict this immediately below.  The art is in the expression, not in 
the idea.

Carl:
>> In visual art, there are rules about
>> composition, etc. (even Piccaso had to stick with the basics; i.e. a nose 
>> is
>> a nose is a nose, even when it's stuck to a kneecap) and in writing there
>> are the basic rules of grammar. They can be butchered, but if they are, 
>> the
>> piece descends into the nonsense he's talking about.
>
> Dan:
> See... the rules are the ideas whereas using those rules allows the
> artist to express their ideas. I don't think the medium matters so
> much as the message the artist attempts to send. I am not a musician
> nor do I dabble in the visual arts. I write. But I get the sense all
> artists approach their craft in much the same fashion. Those who
> succeed perhaps have some natural proclivity but likely as not they've
> also worked their asses off learning their craft.

Carl:
Agreed, and the artist succeeds to the extent that s/he can get that idea 
across in a way that contians the "Ahhhh" of artistry.  If you've been 
writing very long, you've no doubt heard that there are 36 basic plots.  If 
you go more into it, you find there are 4 basic scenerios, depending on the 
level of education you manage.  (Man vs. Man, Man vs. nature, etc.)  I did 
all that, including working my ass off, and did manage to get some stuff 
published, but then made the decision that it wasn't what I wanted to be 
doing.  I still miss writing, because it was so much a part of my life for a 
long time, but I don't miss dealing with the pinheads you had to deal with 
to get it published.

Carl:
>> In my opinion, the
>> difference between the mundane and art is the arrangement of those 
>> basics.
>> To achieve the level of art, they need to make sense, but in a way that's
>> recognizably different than anything previously experienced. One of my
>> favorite definitions of art is, "An object that is done in such a way 
>> that
>> the viewer is never again able to look at a similar object and not think
>> about it." A friend here did a ceramic cup like that. I have never looked
>> at a cup since then without thinking about the cup she did. In that
>> instance, the cup she did was sq, but it brought a touch of DQ with it,
>> IMHO.
>
> Dan:
> I tend to think of art as more of an act than an object, I suppose.
> And I am sure there are as many definitions of art as there are
> artists so I see nothing wrong with your definition above.

Carl:
Would you say it's the act, or the execution?  Is there a difference?  Can 
you sit down to create art, or is is something that happens while you're 
sitting down?  i.e. how much intent is involved?

Dan:
> Still, the flash of inspiration that appears out of nowhere, something
> new and surprising, is the primal response we feel to this experience
> we call life, or Dynamic Quality. By carefully honing the skills it
> takes to recognize and make use of this response, we come to know
> ourselves... the unexamined life not being worth living, and what
> not...

Carl:
I'm not sure how to respond to this one.  The best story I've ever written 
just happened.  I sat down to write, like I was doing every day then, and 
just started with a line from a country song.  I went from there, and three 
hours later I had the story.  I'm not even sure how much active mental 
whatever went into the story.  Do you know what I mean?  It wasn't a flash 
of anything, it just manifested.  I could never just sit down and write a 
great story.  Frequently, I would start writing, then after while the story 
would show up.  I would go back and delete the first three pages or whatever 
and continue on.  I wish I could explain that, but I can't.  That experience 
would make me question the idea of the unexamined life stuff.  I was pretty 
unaware at the time, and in fact I was living in a dissociated state.  I was 
a pretty good witness, but not much of a participant.  Food for thought.

Dan:
> I get the feeling many people cover this up by working a regular job,
> by watching television, by playing video games, by endlessly surfing
> the 'net... by doing anything that covers up that tiny voice crying
> out in the wilderness... that creative urge we all feel if only we
> allow ourselves a moment of silence.

Carl:
To a point.  I've met people who achieved their greatest bliss making a car 
run.  We need to be careful about projecting our values onto other people. 
A lot of them go for numb, (I think I've met most of them) but there are a 
few who are actively involved in creating, but not in creating anything you 
or I would call art.  My oldest sister achieved her "Ahhhh" by decorating 
cakes.  She is really good at it, and thoroughly enjoys doing it.  I think 
she would do it for free if someone supplied the supplies.  Different 
strokes and all that.  Now, for Joe Sixpack, it's a different story.  It's 
almost as if he has given up on life, or never begun to live it.  Maybe he 
or she (Jane Sixpack) did when they were young and were snuffed?  Someone 
told them that what they wanted to do was impossible, or whatever, and they 
believed the person?  I don't know.

Dan:
> Ah... but what of that...

Carl:
The difference between a life realized and one just lived?  This begs the 
question of just how important Quality is to us.  How much real difference 
does it make in our lives?  We are born, we grow, we fulfill the biological 
imperitive, then we die.  Our children are born, grow, etc. etc. ad naseum. 
Hmmm, is Quality the "brass ring" we're supposed to go for?  More food for 
thought, eh?

Having fun musing,
Carl