[MD] Awareness and consciousness in the MOQ

[MarshaV]

Hi Andre,

On Apr 21, 2012, at 1:05 PM, Andre <andrebroersen at gmail.com> wrote:

> Marsha to Andre:
> 
> You are wanting to change the subject from an I-less mindfulness and its imagined conflict perennial philosophy to a "moral self"?
> 
> Andre:
> I will ask the question again: Who(or what)found all those floating patterns you encountered in this state of 'mindfulness? In other words, to whom(or what)did they arise?

Marsha:
In my experience, mindfulness is direct experience prior to conceptions and the twin reification of 'self' and other.   But perhaps you want a Buddhist's conventional (relative) truth, such as a 'self' which doesn't have any real existence?  No.  My sentence stands as written.

"An example of sammuti-sacca [conventional (relative) truth, or static quality] is the concept of self. Pirsig follows the Buddha’s teachings about the ‘self’ which doesn’t recognise that it has any real existence and that only ‘nothingness’ (i.e. Dynamic Quality) is thought to be real. According to Rahula, the Buddha taught that a clinging to the self as real is the primary cause of dukkha (which is usually translated as ‘suffering’).  Having said this, Rahula (1959, p.55) makes it very clear that it’s not incorrect to ‘use such expressions in our daily life as ‘I’, ‘you’, ‘being’, ‘individual’, etc’ as long as it is remembered that the self (like anything else conceptualised) is just a useful convention."
     (McWatt, MoQ Textbook)


> This is a very easy question to answer Marsha especially you who presents her self to be an expert on mindfulness (since this, I presume, lies behind [or underneath] you argument that DQ is none other than sq...thereby messing up Pirsig's philosophy at its foundation which, as he has repeatedly stated, is a static intellectual pattern of value.
> 
> And, yes, you are the first person in the entire history of the world who claims something different to what the perennial philosophies are claiming based on countless first hand experiences. Now, either you are incredibly unique or plainly delusional.

Marsha:
I have nothing to say about your experience of mindfulness, but I would like you to present evidence of what you say the perennial philosophers say regarding mindfulness with or without a self.  Your saying that they dispute my claims doesn't make it true that they really do.  Can you provide some quotes?  


> No need to ask which one I think is the more appropriate description.

Marsha:
Who do you imagine cares what you think?