[MD] Awareness and consciousness in the MOQ

[Andre]

Marsha to Andre:

In my experience, mindfulness is direct experience prior to conceptions and the twin reification of 'self' and other.   But perhaps you want a Buddhist's conventional (relative) truth, such as a 'self' which doesn't have any real existence?  No.  My sentence stands as written.

Andre:
Traleg Rinpoche:
"In the Buddha's early discourses on the Four Noble Truths, the Noble Eightfold Path begins with the cultivation of the correct view...Without a conceptual framework, meditative experiences would be totally incomprehensible. What we experience in meditation has to be properly interpreted, and its significance-or lack thereof-has to be understood. This interpretive act requires appropriate conceptual categories and the correct use of those categories... .
While we are often told that meditation is about emptying the mind, that it is the discursive, agitated thoughts of our mind that keeps us trapped in false appearances, meditative experiences are in fact impossible without the use of conceptual formulations... ."

As the Kagyu master Jamgon Kongtrul Lodro Thaye sang:
"The one who meditates without the view
Is like a blind man wandering the plains...".

Marsha:
I have nothing to say about your experience of mindfulness, but I would like you to present evidence of what you say the perennial philosophers say regarding mindfulness with or without a self.  Your saying that they dispute my claims doesn't make it true that they really do.  Can you provide some quotes?

Andre:
You should be so lucky and I should be so stupid? This would take some time to compile. I can provide you with dozens of quotes but, given your past performance on this discuss with such 'evidence' you'll turn around and suggest they are 'only opinions'.

I suggest you start reading Patanjali re the Nirmanakaya, Kirpal Singh re the Sambhogakaya and the Dharmakaya and then move on to the Svabhavikakaya. These various 'levels' (to be understood in terms of Zen's "Gateless Gate' analogy, see Annotn 69) have been described by many people from different backgrounds and perspectives. Think, among many others, of Krisnamurti, St. John of the Cross, Meister Eckart, Teresa of Avile, Ramana Maharshi, Aurobindo, Hui Neng, Benoit, and lets not forget Robert M. Pirsig!