[MD] Tweaking the emergence

[Tuukka Virtaperko]

Mark,
> Hi Tuukka,
> Thanks.  Let us remember that Pirsig is not a scientist.  His labels
> were presented for metaphysical purposes and not for scientific ones.
> Science is yet another metaphysics, and there is no reason to be
> consistent within it when expounding on MoQ.  So this is really a kind
> of red herring.

Tuukka:
No. Science is not "yet another metaphysics". Science is a subset of 
metaphysics. It makes no sense to have metaphysics in the first place, 
if this is not the case. This is not a red herring.

>
> Mark:
> What Pirsig presents is a systems approach to understanding Quality.
> Of course Quality is not these levels.

Tuukka:
Ugh... what do you mean? "Quality" is not equivalent to "these levels"? 
"These levels" are not a subset of Quality? What the hell... I know what 
you mean, but it can't be said. Don't try to say it (just advice).


> Mark: They are simply presented to
> convey an understanding of the way in which Pirsig sees the world,
> which is not in levels in the end.  He could have used other levels
> with equal effect, or not have resorted to levels at all.  I think it
> is important to not get too caught up in the literal; otherwise we
> would just be strict constitutionalists with little regard for change.
>   Therefore the levels only serve as labels for something far greater,
> and debate on their appropriateness should only revolve around what
> these levels are meant to represent, not on their consistency with the
> metaphysics of science.

Tuukka:
Ugh... I don't give a damn about how Pirsig saw the world. To be sure, 
"world" is definitely the only static thing he saw in LILA -- not 
"reality". If the MOQ has no significance except that of being the 
opinion of a certain Mr. Pirsig, it's obviously not enough.
> Mark:
> Pirsig is also not an anthropologist, so his statements in that area
> should be taken with a grain of salt.

Tuukka:
I've already used a shovel for the salt. Problem?

> Mark:
>
> Remember that Pirsig is doing his best at explaining the
> unexplainable.  Give him some slack.  Forget science, which is not an
> important thing to grab on to in terms of MoQ.  For if you do hold on,
> you will be sidetracked into something other than MoQ.  Quality cannot
> be measured; it therefore lies outside of science, by definition.

Tuukka:

Pirsig is probably a demanding man, and so am I. Don't defend him, 
because I'm not attacking him. It would be appropriate to subject me to 
similar criticism than my current criticism of Pirsig, if I ever 
deserved it.

RP is not science. RP is metaphysics. But since science exists, you 
don't say I don't need to know even a tiny bit about it? Or do you? That 
any scientific understanding is banned for me, because I'm a 
metaphysician? To be sure, I already know Finnish, so why did I study 
any English in the first place... hmm...

-Tuukka