[MD] relative

[MarshaV]

Tuukka,

The subject line might have been misleading.  I have not stated that the MoQ is a form of Relativism.  For me the MoQ is ontologically indeterminate and epistemologically relativistic.  Also you need to read a little farther than the Diamond Sutra.

Thanks, 

Marsha 

--- 


“Intellectual values include truth, justice, freedom, democracy and, trial by jury. It’s worth noting that the MOQ follows a pragmatic notion of truth so truth is seen as relative in his system while Quality is seen as absolute.  In consequence, the truth is defined as the highest quality intellectual explanation at a given time.
      (McWatt,Anthony,MOQ Textbook)

---

"While I am thinking about it there is a very good book on Buddhism recently out called 'Buddhism, Plain and Simple', by Steve Hagen and published by Tuttle Publishing. I recommend you get it because it shows the similarities, between the MOQ and Zen Buddhism more clearly than any other I have seen." 
     (Pirsig to McWatt, May 6th 1998)

From 'Buddhism: Plain and Simple':

  "Nagarjuna, the brilliant Buddhist philosopher of second-century India, wrote,

        Those who do not understand the distinction between
         [the] two truths do not understand the profound truth
        embodied in the Buddha's message.

  "These two truths are relative and Absolute Truth.

  "Relative truths are the day-to-day things and thoughts we can easily discuss, teach sell, and conceptualize.  These include simple facts --- a foot is twelve inches, oranges contain vitamin C, Mount McKinley is in North America.  But feet, inches, oranges, rocks, birds, feelings and thoughts, are themselves also relative truths.  Each one depends on a vast multiplicity of other things, other concepts, other relative truths for its existence --- an existence which is, of course, one hundred percent conceptual. 

  "Relative truths are the concepts we use to get an easy handle on the world.  They help us in our everyday lives with a huge variety of practical matters.  But the more closely we look at them, the less Real they show themselves to be.

  "Nevertheless, relative truths aren't to be avoided.  They're not necessarily evil, or harmful, or wrong.  Indeed, they're essential.  In order to get through the day, we need to know things --- telephone numbers, store hours, potatoes, growing seasons, fractions, love, speed limits, how to fasten shoes.  We run into trouble when we forget that all these things, thoughts, and feelings are relative --- that they are not Real, independent entities at all.  They exist only in relation to other things, thoughts, and feelings.  When we refer to "this book," that is a relative truth.  And we've already seen that the more closely we examine what "this book" is, the more we can't pin it down, and the more the "truth" of it dissipates like a morning mist after sunrise.

  "Relative truths are why we fight wars, why we fear people who aren't like us, and why we debate the abortion question but come no closer to a resolution of it. 

  "Ultimate Truth, on the other hand, is direct perception.  And what is directly perceived (as opposed to conceived) is that no separate, individualized things exist as such.  There's nothing to be experienced but this seamless, thoroughgoing relativity and flux.

  "In other words, there are no particulars, but only _thus_.

  "Ultimate Truth can't be conceptualized or imagined.  You cannot hold Ultimate Truth in your mind at all.  You can _see_ It.  You just can't hold It as an idea.  

  "Ultimate Truth appears the same to all who _see_.  It can't be countered or doubted or discounted because it is immediate, direct experience itself.  It's not other-dependent.  It has no "other."  What's ultimately True can't be held in opposition to something else.  

  "We can actually _see_ this.  We can (and, in fact, we do) _see_ for ourselves, right now, Ultimate Truth, and Reality.  Our only problem is that we ignore what we _see_.”

-------------

   (Hagen, Steve, ‘Buddhism: Plain and Simple’, pp.142-143)