[MD] relative

[Carl Thames]

I'm a bit curious about this whole evolution thing.  I'm familiar with the 
concept expressed by Darwin, wherein Individual A is born with the gene for 
a longer femur, which allows him or her to chase down food better than 
his/her contemporaries, thereby allowing him or her to surivive longer and 
produce more offspring, all with the gene for a longer femur.  Okay, 
Individual B is born with a gene for a shorter femur, but fortunately for 
him or her, lives in a forest and the shorter femur allows him/her to climb 
trees better, which facilitates getting food, which allows him/her to 
survive longer and produce more offspring, all with the gene for a shorter 
femur.  Is this actually evolution?  The whole 'survival of the fittest' 
thing seems pretty situational.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Tuukka Virtaperko" <mail at tuukkavirtaperko.net>
To: <moq_discuss at moqtalk.org>
Sent: Sunday, January 08, 2012 5:14 PM
Subject: Re: [MD] relative


> Joe,
>
>> Joe:
>>
>> I am approaching my 80th birthday (lame-brained), and there is no doubt 
>> the
>> way I express concepts is all over the place.
>>
>
> Tuukka:
> At least you aren't going to school in the morning like my grandfather, 
> who did that in his seventies. I'm happy my dad likes crosswords because 
> doing them prevents that kind of damage to some extent. Happy birthday 
> when you get there!
>
>> Joe:
>>
>> The concept of Evolution, something indefinable in the sense of levels in
>> existence, without appealing to creation, interests me.  Evolution is not
>> something from nothing, but something embracing a sense of order and
>> individuality.  I prefer the musical Do,Re, Mi etc. as a model for order.
>
> Tuukka:
>
> Okay. Then you perhaps even are a mystic. I feel what you mean but don't 
> know it.
>
>> Joe:
>>
>> I don't know what game we are playing?  I am not good at mysticism.  I 
>> don't
>> have a mathematical background.  My use of logic is instinctive and I 
>> appeal
>> to evolution good and bad.  I have no strong feeling for what mysticism
>> might be or what it might achieve?
>
> Tuukka:
>
> I feel what mysticism is and what it achieves, but don't know it. I don't 
> know what game we are playing either.
>
> Maybe I can say something about mysticism. It is the study of symbols that 
> are extremely general and abstract. Jungian archetypes. I think that's 
> what mysticism is about, to some extent. Other aspects may be undefinable.
>
> Wikipedia: "Carl Gustav Jung developed an understanding of archetypes as 
> being 'ancient or archaic images that derive from the collective 
> unconscious'."
>
> There are many things one can say about Evolution, and it's maybe indeed a 
> good idea to capitalize that word in this use. But I'd say the Evolution 
> of archetypes has become extremely rapid during the past century or so. 
> The rise seems almost exponential in the amount of archetypes, their 
> relations to each other, and what not.
>
> I don't remember what this had to do with recursion in Buddhism, though.
>
> It does have one connection, and that is that archetypes are being copied 
> by humans (passed from one to another) and in this process they can also 
> be combined with each other, as to form new archetypes. They may also be 
> modified both intentionally and accidentally. In this way they resemble 
> genes. Genes are modified intentionally by sexual choice and accidentally 
> by mutation. And ultimately, archetypes are information or knowledge, and 
> thus belong to the subject matter of epistemology.
>
> It would be interesting to study this kind of Evolution. How one one go 
> about in trying to do it? After all, we live in the subject matter we are 
> studying. It's not like biology, in which you can use your eyes (which 
> consists of cells) to look at other cells, even though your eyes can't see 
> themselves. But if we want to study archetypes, we are, in some way, 
> requiring for our eyes to see themselves. And that is what makes mysticism 
> hard to define.
>
> I've studied some mysticism in ancient religious texts, such as the Bible 
> and Gnostic gospels and Norse mythology. Finnish mythology is pretty 
> familiar to every Finn who pays attention in primary school. I would say I 
> didn't understand religion or spirituality at all before I studied Norse 
> mythology and the Gnostic gospels. The Coyote of the Plains Indians is 
> also a personal favorite.
>
> Do you find this to be related to the Evolution you were talking about?
>
> -Tuukka
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