[MD] SOPA and PIPA

[Tuukka Virtaperko]

Mark,
correction. Saami is a recognized regional language, not an official 
language.

> Mark:
> Do you work for free then?  Or do you actually have to pay for things?
>   Is there a profit system in Finland, or is everything based on
> goodwill?  How do you define your sustenance.  Is there a government
> rule as to how much you need?  Do some people need more than others?

Tuukka:
Yes I work for free. Of course I have to pay for things, just like 
everyone else. But I get the money as welfare. Of course there's a 
profit system in Finland. This is not communism. And when Soviet Union 
tried to make this a communist system, they lost 1 200 000 men and 
didn't succeed. Finns lost 300 000 men.

> Mark:
> This is an interesting example.  Why would anyone call Van Gogh
> irresponsible?  He was supported by his brother who actually worked
> quite hard for the two of them.  I am a big fan of Van Gogh, are you
> suggesting that an artist should be judged by how much they make?  In
> a free economy, it is supply and demand.  His paintings go for a lot
> because people want them (since he cannot make anymore), not because
> he is a good artist.  You know as well as I do that the price for such
> art is a complete scam.  It is set by just a few people.   How would
> you define such a thing anyway.  What makes a good artist in your
> opinion?  If nobody wants to buy your art, are you still a good
> artist?  As far as I can tell, you would support the idea that the
> painting be given away for free, just like software, movies, or music
> that is pirated on the internet.  Am I wrong?

Tuukka:
True, it is a scam.

I certainly won't "define a good artist", that's like defining Dynamic 
Quality. I guess if Dynamic Quality can be defined, so can good art, 
though. And I've done some work on that. But it's a bunch of formulae, 
done actually by my friend, and not ready for publication at the moment, 
although a preliminary version with mistakes used to be available on my 
website.

An artist is quite possibly good even if nobody wants to buy. I mean, 
compare Bansky and Thierry Guetta.

I'm okay with artistic intellectual property being given away for free, 
if there is basic income guarantee and no welfare traps. If we don't 
want that, why would we even want public libraries?

> Mark:
> People who are making lots of money, they simply have a different
> business model.  There are not too many people that work for free.

Tuukka:
I don't think they make "lots" of money. They make a living. Wikipedia 
makes a minimal amount of money compared to its popularity. They just 
take what they need, it seems. Many servers are running Linux because 
it's very stable, and that operating system has, to a great extent, been 
developed by free and just for fun. "Just for fun" is also the name of a 
book written by Linus Torvalds, the Finn whose first name was was 
altered by one letter when Linux was named. Well, he's rich now, but 
that's not the point. He didn't do it because of that.

> Mark:
> Why are you harping on this artist thing?  I am an artist.  If you do
> not think that science is an art, then perhaps I can teach you
> something.  As a scientist I am just as creative as a musician or a
> painter.  I do not divert my activities from the creative process
> either.  Otherwise I would be useless as a scientist.  I would not
> call what you do an "only thing".  That is just silly.  Are you saying
> that those who do PR are not artists at their jobs?  You seem to be
> creating a class of people where there is none.   All of us contribute
> to society with our art.  What in your opinion makes an "artist"?  Are
> you saying that as an artist you are somehow different from the
> regular people?  I do not see you as such.  If you contribute to
> society, you are the same as the rest of us regular people.

Tuukka:
Okay, you're an artist. And I do PR. But I do PR which appeals to people 
who I want to appeal to, not to people who have the money. So the PR I 
do does not seem useful as a means for getting rich. Its just one part 
of artistry.

> Mark:
> Tuukka, Tuukka, this discussion was about piracy.  What is all this
> stuff about artists and standard of living?  Many artist want to get
> rich.  Is there something wrong with them?   When they get rich they
> can use that money to make better art.

Tuukka:

Piracy and artists' standard of living are irrelevant? That's not 
certainly a widely held opinion!

I want to get rich too. But it's not my primary objective. I don't have 
a problem with that being someones primary objective. But I hear every 
now and then someone saying something idiotic like it should be the 
primary objective of everyone. No, it shouldn't.

>
> Mark:
> All that we do can be considered social value.  Would you consider a
> bank to be information based?  It is considered as such, since it does
> not produce any goods or services.  My example of the manager was that
> as one moves farther away from the actual manufacture of goods, one
> relies more on information.  Perhaps I was not clear with my analogy.
> For that I appologize.  But don't get stuck in the slicing and dicing
> of the sentences and miss the overall context.

Tuukka:
Uhh... so I make webpages and write formulae and stuff. Is that "actual 
manufacture of goods"? I do get stuck because my mind is not getting 
over this now. I don't know what you meant, and must have more 
information in order for us to discuss more about this.

I mean, what are you talking about? That if anyone is a manager, it's 
"information based economy"? I don't think that's what they were talking 
about in the news, regarding SOPA and PIPA. There were managers three 
millenia ago, although probably not as much.


> Mark:
> Music on the internet is considered information (bits and bytes).  Yes
> it can be copied, that is what we are talking about.  Ilegal copying
> of information.  It is no different from Food, if you own it.  Does it
> bother you if somebody comes in and steals your food?  Maybe this is
> common in Finland ;-).

Tuukka:

Yo, what's that bullshit? YOU CAN'T E-MAIL FOOD TO SOMEONE WHILE KEEPING 
IT YOURSELF. Read that again.

>
> Mark:
> So, Is what you are saying is that musicians have no right to make
> money off of what they create.  The terms between a large record
> company and a musician is a completely different subject.  Yes,
> companies do not like to go out of business.  What if the factory you
> want to work in went out of business because people were allowed to
> steal what they made?  Would this be OK with you?

Tuukka:
Are you seriously asking?

>
> Mark:
> Tuukka, I asked you what parts of the bill is dumb.  Could you be more
> specific?  Which part do you have a problem with?  If people do not
> want to follow the law, that is their choice.  Do many people not
> follow the law so that they do not get embarrassed?  Where did this
> indefinite detention come from?  You are really coming out of left
> field (as we say in this country).  What in God's name are you going
> on about?  Let's relax here and have a reasonable conversation.
>
> Hitler killed 6 million Jews!  Does this not concern you!

Tuukka:
What kind of a person are you? "If people don't follow the law, that is 
their choice." That's nonsense. I'm not continuing this conversation.

-Tuukka